1 1 2 3 4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 5 6 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE 7 MEETING 8 9 MARCH 20, 2002 10 11 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 BE IT REMEMBERED that the BINGO ADVISORY 19 COMMITTEE meeting was held on the 20TH of MARCH, 2002, 20 from 10:00 a.m. to 4:15 p.m., before Marguerite S. 21 MacInnes, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported 22 by machine shorthand, at the Offices of the Texas 23 Housing & Commercial Development, 507 Sabine, 4th 24 Floor, Board Meeting Room, Austin, Texas, whereupon 25 the following proceedings were had: WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 Chairman: Mr. William Neinast - Burton, Texas 4 5 Vice-Chairman: Ms. Virginia Brackett - Lubbock, Texas 6 7 Committee Members: Ms. Suzanne Taylor - Corpus Christi, Texas 8 Mr. Lexford Speed - Plano, Texas Mr. Saleem Tawil - Austin, Texas 9 Mr. David Castillo - Kingsville, Texas Mr. Robert Rinehart - Amarillo, Texas 10 11 Charitable Bingo Operations Director: Mr. Billy Atkins 12 Mr. Phil Sanderson 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 3 1 INDEX 2 3 Appearances...................................... 2 4 AGENDA ITEMS 5 Item Number 1.................................... 4 6 Item Number 2.................................... N/A Item Number 3.................................... 7 7 Item Number 4.................................... 15 Item Number 5.................................... 23 8 Item Number 6.................................... 144 Item Number 7.................................... 92 9 Item Number 8.................................... 194 Item Number 9.................................... 195 10 Item Number 10................................... 197 11 Reporter's Certificate........................... 205 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 4 1 March 20, 2002 2 Bingo Advisory Committee Meeting 3 CHAIR NEINAST: I'd like to call the 4 meeting of the Bingo Advisory Committee to order. We 5 do have a quorum present. I'd like to welcome each of 6 you here today, invite you to participate in any of 7 the discussions we have. Can you hear me? Is this 8 on? 9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes. 10 CHAIR NEINAST: If you would like to 11 address the committee on any issue, if you would fill 12 out one of the witness affirmation forms and drop it 13 in the box here over here in front of the reporter, 14 we'd appreciate it. 15 Our court reporter today is Marti MacInnes. 16 Again I'd ask the committee members and those in the 17 audience if you participate that this is being 18 transcribed verbatim, so we need to have only one 19 person talking, and let's make it easy for Marti. 20 If you will note the members are present, 21 Marti, and we'll proceed to the first item on the 22 agenda which is a consideration of and possible action 23 including approval on the minutes of the February 13th 24 Bingo Advisory Committee meeting. 25 I was not present at that, I've not seen WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 5 1 the minutes, I cannot comment on them, but you have in 2 your report form one page on which there was a 3 question. I understand that's been clarified now, 4 Billy? 5 MR. ATKINS: Yes, sir. And for the record, 6 if I could, it is on page 6 of the transcript of the 7 February 13th meeting, page 6, starting on line 22, 8 the statement is attributed to Mr. Sanderson. The 9 statement should be attributed to Mr. Rinehart. 10 And just for clarification purposes, 11 Mr. Chairman, members, you will notice on the Web site 12 that we place on the Web site two items under the 13 Bingo Advisory Committee. Until you adopt the 14 transcript we have it listed just as that, transcript 15 of the February 13th meeting. Once you adopt it, that 16 will be changed to the minutes of the February 13th 17 meeting. So the first thing the people will see is 18 the transcript, and it won't become the official 19 minutes until the BAC adopts it. 20 CHAIR NEINAST: All right. On that item, 21 by the way, as each of us up here begins to speak, if 22 for the record and to make it easy on Marti to just 23 identify yourself, and that will make it easy to get 24 it on the record. 25 That statement that is from the minutes is WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 6 1 correct, Bob, to a certain extent. This was the first 2 time around. We considered it twice. I took that 3 recommendation to the commission the first time and 4 they denied it. We reconsidered and got more data in 5 support of that motion, and when I took it back to 6 them the second time, they did approve changing the 7 rules to allow the committee to have some meetings 8 outside of Austin. So that's right as to the first 9 action, but there was a subsequent action that is not 10 reflected in your statement, so we do have authority 11 now or approval from the commission to move ahead with 12 the change to the rules to allow meetings outside of 13 Austin. 14 Are there any other changes -- 15 MR. TALWIN: I got a comment -- 16 CHAIR NEINAST: -- for the purpose -- 17 MR. TAWIL: Being aware that you were 18 absent, Mr. Chairman, we voted, unanimously passed the 19 approval of a letter to be written to the Sunset 20 Commission by this advisory committee that was part of 21 those minutes. 22 CHAIR NEINAST: Like I say, I was not -- 23 MR. TAWIL: My concern is that before the 24 minutes are approved, those activities, do they just 25 fall through or does somebody pick up the action? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 7 1 CHAIR NEINAST: That would not affect the 2 approval of the minutes. We'll just have to follow up 3 and see if that was done. I mean, we don't wait and 4 see that the action that's been taken -- that is 5 recommended here is taken to approve the minutes. We 6 follow up on that as a separate action, but it will 7 not affect the approval of the minutes. 8 Any other additions, deletions or 9 amendments to the minutes or to the transcript? 10 The chair will entertain a motion to 11 approve the transcript with the amendment suggested by 12 Billy that the -- Mr. Sanderson be changed to 13 Mr. Rinehart on line 22 of page 6. Is there a motion? 14 MR. SPEED: Made. 15 MR. RINEHART: Second. 16 CHAIR NEINAST: The motion has been made 17 and seconded to approve the transcript as the minutes 18 of the February 13th meeting. All in favor, aye? 19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye. 20 CHAIR NEINAST: The minutes are approved. 21 Number 3 on the agenda is status report, 22 possible discussion and/or action on the security 23 divisions activities. As we've handled these in the 24 past, members of the committee have a report from the 25 security division, the number of complaints received, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 8 1 the actions taken to resolve them, the top complaints 2 received and other information. Mike Pitcock, the 3 head of the security division, is here. Are there any 4 questions of Mike on that -- 5 MR. PITCOCK: You have two quarters. You 6 have the first sheet and if you flip over to the back, 7 you have the second quarter for the fiscal year 2002. 8 I didn't speak at the last meeting so this is an 9 accumulation of both. I'll be glad to answer any 10 questions or go over it if you have any questions 11 about it. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: Any questions of 13 Mr. Pitcock? 14 If none, thank you. -- I'm sorry, there 15 was one, Steve Bresnen, who wanted to address that 16 item. Steve? 17 MR. BRESNEN: Yes, sir. Thank you. My 18 name is Steve Bresnen. I'm here on behalf of the 19 Bingo Interest Group and several charities out of the 20 Odessa area. 21 I can't go into any detail because I don't 22 have any to look at, and because there was no 23 discussion of the details of the report, it's hard to 24 comment on this item, and really what I want to do is 25 make a little bit of a point that if there was some WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 9 1 discussion of what the details were and what the 2 security division is doing, it would be easier for 3 people out here to have some comment or question about 4 it. I do have some questions that I would like y'all 5 to ask given the appropriate time. Given the length 6 of your agenda today I won't -- I don't think you 7 ought to get bogged down in that today personally, but 8 here's one thing, there is a question on my mind, is 9 how much money does the agency spend on security for 10 bingo? And I think this is going to be -- this issue 11 is going to come up a little later on when we talk 12 about the structure of the agency and whether it ought 13 to be here or elsewhere. 14 A lot of people have complained to me over 15 the years that we use licensed peace officers for the 16 security division, and we really don't get any 17 information about the performance of the security 18 division or how much the bingo taxes and fees that are 19 paid for this agency contribute to the activities of 20 the security division, so at some point I'd appreciate 21 it if you would go into some further detail about that 22 and work through that a little bit so we could know a 23 little bit more about it out here in the public. 24 Thank you. 25 CHAIR NEINAST: The report we get and the WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 10 1 report that Mr. Pitcock makes to us is basically the 2 number of complaints that have been received during 3 the quarter by region, the number of those complaints 4 that have been resolved by region as to whether they 5 have been referred, and we don't get names or 6 anything. We just get raw numbers. 7 MR. BRESNEN: Right. 8 CHAIR NEINAST: The number of complaints 9 that have resulted and some type of action, if it's 10 been referred to a district attorney or a defending 11 attorney or to the audit office. Often the audit 12 office comes into play on this, too, because they have 13 play in the enforcement deal, and then a list of the 14 typical or the largest number of complaints, what area 15 they fall in. For example, for the first quarter of 16 the fiscal year there were nine complaints of a 17 failure to pay prize to the winner, four complaints 18 of -- that there was gambling going on at the time of 19 bingo, three complaints of someone allowed to play 20 without charge, two complaints that the winner was 21 improperly verified, two complaints that bingo workers 22 were playing bingo and two that workers were not 23 listed on applications. 24 MR. BRESNEN: That's for a quarter? 25 CHAIR NEINAST: That's for a quarter. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 11 1 MR. BRESNEN: And would the other quarter 2 be similar numbers? 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Second quarter, roughly 4 similar, fewer complaints on failure to pay prize 5 winner, but the others are close, within one or two. 6 MR. BRESNEN: Okay. It would seem to me if 7 when the Bingo Advisory Committee met that if you all 8 were to talk about those numbers some where everybody 9 else out here got them without us having to file an 10 Open Records request to get that information and there 11 was some discussion, it might help us to participate 12 in these meetings, and that's the only point that I'm 13 really here to make about this. But now that you've 14 read me the numbers, I would like to make one 15 observation. 16 There is a budget number that's attached. 17 People in bingo pay fees and taxes to support this 18 agency. There is a budget number that's attached to 19 how much we pay for the security division here in the 20 agency. Those numbers, if those are reflecting the 21 activities of the security division, then we might be 22 able to compare how much we spend to what those 23 activities are and be able to draw conclusions about 24 whether that's worth it or not. Those numbers don't 25 look, just at first blush, just standing out here, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 12 1 they don't look like much. It doesn't look to me like 2 there is a great deal of complaint activity just from 3 what you are telling me, and I don't know if those are 4 representative quarters or not. 5 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, let me clarify. 6 MR. BRESNEN: Yes, sir. 7 CHAIR NEINAST: These are just the top 8 complaints, but, for example, the numbers I read off, 9 the total complaints received, we have them listed by 10 region, 40 -- 11 MR. TAWIL: At the top it's 53. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: 53 total complaints 13 received, and this is just of those 53 the ones that 14 occur most frequently. So they had 53 complaints 15 during that quarter. 16 MR. BRESNEN: Okay. I just want to return 17 to this -- I'm not here to parse the numbers with you 18 and draw conclusions. What I'm asking you to do is to 19 go through the numbers in a public meeting and then 20 ask those kinds of questions. I'll come back to that 21 when we get down to the part about -- 22 MR. TAWIL: Would it be better if these 23 were posted on the Web site? 24 MR. BRESNEN: Well, there is a whole room 25 full of people here that it could be -- WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 13 1 MR. TAWIL: I think it's just an oversight. 2 I never thought about the idea that this would be 3 important for people to have. 4 MR. BRESNEN: Right. I really don't want 5 to get bogged down at this point. There are going to 6 be some issues that I'm going to discuss later that 7 have to do with the security division, not the 8 individuals, not the personalities, but the structure 9 of this agency, and I wanted to make this point while 10 you are going through those numbers that in my opinion 11 you all should be looking at those numbers and be 12 thinking about, you know, what do they mean, what do 13 they mean for how we spend the money within the 14 agency. 15 Bingo is stagnant at best, and bingo 16 contributes a lot of money to this state, and it 17 contributes I think it's about five or six times, 18 correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe five or six 19 times what we spend to regulate bingo. At the same 20 time, these numbers are going down and my clients tell 21 me that charities are having a hard time making it, 22 lessors are having a hard time making it, and if 23 that's the case, we should be looking at every dollar 24 that we're taking out of bingo for state activities, 25 and this is one of them. We use peace officers for a WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 14 1 function -- I didn't hear a single thing in there that 2 equates to rape or murder and yet we're using licensed 3 peace officers, if I'm understanding, y'all correct me 4 if I'm wrong, I'm really trying to have a dialogue 5 with you about what we're doing and how we're doing it 6 and get you to focus on those things. Is it more 7 expensive to use peace officers to police those kinds 8 of complaints than it would be to use some other kind 9 of personnel that don't have to pass the (inaudible) 10 exams and maintain their licenses and carry weapons 11 and other equipment and that sort of stuff? I'm 12 asking you to go into those kinds of questions and 13 think a little bit more about the sort of wiring of 14 this agency because I think it matters, and I think 15 you are going to have to have that hands-on attention 16 to it if we're going to make some progress about these 17 kinds of issues that I'm talking about today. But 18 I'll come back to some of these later on when we have 19 a wider ranging discussion on how you do your work. 20 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. Appreciate it, 21 Steve. 22 MR. BRESNEN: Thank you. 23 CHAIR NEINAST: No further comment on that 24 status report, we'll pass to Number 4 on the agenda, 25 consideration of and possible discussion and/or action WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 15 1 on nominations to the Bingo Advisory Committee. This 2 is a first time for the Bingo Advisory Committee. I 3 have discussed it with the Lottery Commission, and 4 they would like to have input from this committee on 5 the makeup of the committee in the form of 6 appointments to the committee. You have in front of 7 you, the members of the committee, those nomination 8 forms that have been received. There was some 9 confusion on the part of sitting members, and I had 10 the same confusion sometime back, on whether sitting 11 members had to be renominated. We had asked for it in 12 the past, but some -- we did not get the word out and 13 Virginia Brackett and Lexford Speed, who are current 14 members of the committee, would like to be considered 15 for renomination, and I see no restriction or no harm 16 in considering them for membership to be appointed for 17 the next time around. 18 We currently have, considering Virginia and 19 Lexford as nominees, we have nominations from existing 20 board members for Robert Rinehart, Suzanne Taylor and 21 Saleem Tawil, and I think it's very important that we 22 have some continuity on this committee from year to 23 year and from years past to carry on, having knowledge 24 of what's been done in the past. 25 So we've not done this before. I would WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 16 1 like to take these, if you would look at the areas 2 from which we have to get members on the board, the 3 general public, I represent that. I am not up for 4 renomination. We've got one, two, three, four, five, 5 six, seven nominees. I think it's also important to 6 consider in looking at these, you have to look kind of 7 down the list to have not only a breakout of the 8 various activities in bingo represented, but I think 9 it's important to try to have a geographical 10 representation, that we have as much of the state 11 represented in one form or another than just looking 12 at whether the nominees to represent the general 13 public or the commercial lessor or conductor or what 14 have you. 15 So I think we need to take these one by one 16 to fill the positions. We will consider now the one 17 for general public. The chair would entertain a 18 motion as to -- from anyone as to -- of those seven 19 nominees who they think would make a good member. I 20 notice that the last two listed, for whatever it's 21 worth, they both have the same last name and they are 22 both from Poteet. I don't know what their 23 relationship is. 24 Any comment or any suggestion or 25 recommendation from any member of the committee as to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 17 1 an appointment to represent the general public? 2 MS. BRACKETT: How many are we needing for 3 that? 4 CHAIR NEINAST: Just one. 5 MS. BRACKETT: Just one. 6 MS. TAYLOR: I'm not familiar with any of 7 these people on here, but if any of them are present 8 today, it might be nice if they could talk to us so we 9 could know who they are. 10 CHAIR NEINAST: Good idea. The nominees 11 are Angela Grummet, William Holden, James Overstreet, 12 Gilberto Torres, Ricky Turman, Carolyn Vasquez and 13 Sheila Vasquez. Are any of those present? 14 Apparently not. 15 MR. TAWIL: There is one on here that says 16 she knows all there is to know. 17 MR. SPEED: That's who we're looking for. 18 CHAIR NEINAST: Of those nominees, the 19 nominees, one is from Galveston, one is from 20 Clarendon, one is from Garland, one is from Uvalde, 21 one from Waco, and the two Vasquezes from Poteet. 22 Apparently none of the members know any of 23 these. Would there be a motion to appoint or to 24 recommend the appointment of one of those? 25 MR. SPEED: I don't know any either, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 18 1 Mr. Chairman. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: I don't know any that is on 3 the nominating committee. Their information and -- 4 MR. TAWIL: Billy, did any of these people 5 provide backup data or anything? 6 MR. ATKINS: No, I think some of them did, 7 might have included a letter or resume, but nothing 8 more than that. 9 MR. TAWIL: What's the deadline on us 10 acting on this? 11 CHAIR NEINAST: It should go to the 12 commission, their next meeting is April the 26th. I 13 think we want to take the recommendations to them 14 then. 15 MR. ATKINS: But there is no -- there is no 16 requirement that the commission act by then. 17 CHAIR NEINAST: You mean on the 18 appointments? 19 MR. ATKINS: That's correct. 20 MR. TAWIL: I think if we're going to do 21 this right, we ought to have a subcommittee or 22 somebody look into all of this instead of just 23 blanketly recommending somebody we don't know anything 24 about. It's a waste of time. 25 CHAIR NEINAST: Yes, sir. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 19 1 MR. KITTELL: James Kittell, from San 2 Antonio. How do you go from an applicant to a 3 nominee? 4 MR. ATKINS: Same thing. 5 MR. TAWIL: You can self-nominate. 6 MR. KITTELL: Well, I had been an 7 applicant, but I don't hear myself as a nominee. 8 MR. TAWIL: What's your name, sir? 9 MR. KITTELL: Kittell. 10 MR. SPEED: You are on here. 11 MR. ATKINS: They are talking about the 12 individuals in the public category. You applied as a 13 conductor or lessor. 14 MR. KITTELL: I see. I misunderstood. 15 MR. ATKINS: Applicant, nominating, it's 16 all the the same thing. 17 MR. KITTELL: As far as -- 18 MR. ATKINS: Mr. Kittell, would you mind 19 filling out a form for us? 20 MR. PITCOCK: Just to kind of clarify, as 21 far as the general public, we don't do background, but 22 if they are part of a licensed organization, 23 conductor, we do criminal background investigations on 24 all those people so backgrounds have been done except 25 for that general public nominee. Those are people WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 20 1 that we have not or have not been affiliated with a 2 licensed organization so there has been a background 3 investigation on those that are affiliated or tied to 4 the other license type. 5 MR. ATKINS: Well, I'm not sure I 6 understand your comment, Mike. Isn't there a separate 7 background process that's done for members of the 8 advisory committee? 9 MR. PITCOCK: Yes, but that's what I'm 10 saying. There has been some done. Saleem was saying 11 nothing has been done, yes, it has been done on some 12 of those that are nominated that are tied to a 13 license. For example, you, if you are nominated for a 14 position, you know, you have a license and we've done 15 background investigation on you prior to getting your 16 license, and the ones that are general public have not 17 been. Billy is correct we do it after their 18 appointment, also. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: After the appointment all 20 you do is a background check on all of them; is that 21 correct? 22 MR. PITCOCK: Right, we reestablish the 23 information that we've got. If each of the individual 24 members, I think if you remember, each of you filled 25 out a packet before you started, and we run through WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 21 1 that packet and based on that information we do an 2 investigation, but prior to that basically we already 3 know that some of you have already been done. 4 MR. TAWIL: Mr. Chairman, I think we ought 5 to appoint a subcommittee to study this in a little 6 bit more detail because most of these people none of 7 the committee has much information on to make an 8 intelligent recommendation. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: I think that's an excellent 10 suggestion. Did you make a motion? 11 MR. TAWIL: I make a motion that we appoint 12 a subcommittee to study all of these and bring back 13 all the facts to the full committee's next meeting and 14 then we all vote on the individual positions that are 15 up. 16 CHAIR NEINAST: Is there a second to the 17 motion? 18 MS. BRACKETT: I second the motion. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: Motion has been made and 20 seconded to appoint a subcommittee to review the 21 nominations and bring a report back to the next 22 meeting of the Bingo Advisory Committee. All in 23 favor, aye? 24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye. 25 CHAIR NEINAST: In connection with that WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 22 1 motion, the motion carries. I will then appoint 2 Saleem as chairman. 3 Virginia, would you serve on that? 4 MS. BRACKETT: Yes, I'd be glad to. 5 CHAIR NEINAST: And Suzanne. 6 MR. TAWIL: Any expenses with that? 7 CHAIR NEINAST: We'll meet right here in 8 Austin or possibly by teleconference. 9 MS. TAYLOR: Can I make one suggestion 10 before we pass? 11 CHAIR NEINAST: Yes, ma'am. 12 MS. TAYLOR: I would like to see the list 13 of who is nominated posted for the general public so 14 everybody can see who is nominated. If you have any 15 information on these individuals, if you can let the 16 subcommittee know so that we've got some additional 17 information that we're going to be making a 18 recommendation to the full committee, that would be 19 very helpful. So if there is a way that we could get 20 this list out to these people that are here today, 21 that would be awesome. 22 CHAIR NEINAST: Can we post that on the Web 23 site? 24 MR. ATKINS: Yes. 25 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. Number 5 on the WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 23 1 agenda is consideration of and possible discussion 2 and/or action on the effectiveness of the Bingo 3 Advisory Committee, including the process used by the 4 Bingo Advisory Committee to consider, discuss and/or 5 take action on issues before the Bingo Advisory 6 Committee. 7 We have a number of individuals who 8 indicated they would like to address that issue. I'll 9 just call them as they come up on the desk here. 10 Billy, what did you have? 11 MR. ATKINS: Just as real quick background 12 information to the members, I sent out and I hope I 13 sent to Steve a copy of -- this is a partial 14 transcript from the March 6th meeting of the Texas 15 Lottery Commission, and it's in an exchange that took 16 place between Mr. Steve Bresnen, the chairman of the 17 Texas Lottery Commission, Tom Clowe, and very briefly 18 myself, and just to kind of lay out very briefly for 19 the advisory committee and the public here today, 20 there were some questions raised as to how the 21 effectiveness of the advisory committee could be 22 improved. I think the two issues that Mr. Bresnen 23 raised were questions about how the deliberative 24 process could be improved, that is, the exchange of 25 information and the submission of information on WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 24 1 relevant topics to members of the advisory committee, 2 and also on ways to bring more of the issues that come 3 before the advisory committee to fruition, and 4 Chairman Clowe, again I'm just paraphrasing real 5 quickly this exchange, he was appreciative of 6 Mr. Bresnen's comments and he was also very 7 appreciative and very sensitive to the volunteer time 8 that members of the public commit by serving on this 9 advisory committee. So he also wanted part of the 10 discussion to center around how it can be made more 11 efficient so that the best use of your time is made, 12 and the one thing I guess that I added is that the 13 staff had expressed a concern on the interest in the 14 Advisory Committee. You know, we've just talked about 15 the nominations. Out of 14,000 forms that we sent 16 out, we got 37 in response. So I think everybody's 17 intent from this item is, again in a nutshell, to 18 identify is ways that we can increase the 19 effectiveness and the efficiency of the advisory 20 committee, and that's something that the staff has 21 been thinking about and I'll be happy to comment on at 22 the appropriate time, Mr. Chairman. 23 CHAIR NEINAST: Thank you, Billy, and I 24 might add to that, I was not aware of that -- I did 25 not attend that meeting, but this action we discussed WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 25 1 earlier of getting permission from the commission to 2 hold some of our meetings outside of Austin is aimed 3 at that also, to get out in the areas that are some 4 distance from Austin where a person working for a 5 charity who is not being paid anything might attend 6 the meeting and give us some valuable input whereas he 7 would not want to pay the expenses of coming from 8 Texarkana or Lubbock or somewhere else to appear 9 before us, so that's one action I think that will be 10 taken in the future. We hope we'll get more input 11 from the public, which is something we really are 12 looking for and have looked for and we want, and I'm 13 just very pleased at the number of you who are here 14 today. We've never had a turnout like this, and I 15 wish we would have something like this at every one of 16 our meetings. This is what we need, and this is the 17 only way we can get the information that we need to be 18 an effective sounding board for the Lottery 19 Commission. 20 Having said that, we have just quite a few 21 individuals who want to address that item. I'll just 22 go down as they appear here on the desk. The first 23 one is Steve Bresnen. He had a few comments before, 24 and welcome back, Steve. 25 MR. BRESNEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 26 1 Steve Bresnen, and I represent the Bingo Interest 2 Group and several charities out of the Odessa area. 3 I hope you will take the opportunity when 4 you get a minute to read the discussion. I think 5 Billy did a really good, fair and balanced job of 6 detailing that discussion that I had with Chairman 7 Clowe at the Lottery Commission meeting. I have a 8 tendency sometimes to come off as being critical of 9 individuals, and it's not my intention to do that and 10 it's not what's in my heart. But I do think that it's 11 fair to say that organizationally the Bingo Advisory 12 Committee has not been doing as well as it could do, 13 and I take some personal responsibility for that 14 primarily because the chairman told me to in a private 15 meeting I had with him. He asked me to become more 16 consistently involved. My face is familiar to you, 17 but I've sort of come and gone depending on whether 18 there was anything in a particular crisis on your 19 agenda, and I pledge to you to be here more 20 consistently. I can't say I'll be here every time 21 because that wouldn't be fair and it would be wrong, 22 but I will be here a lot, and I'm going to do 23 everything I can to turn out everyday people in bingo 24 to come to your meetings. So I'm going to do my part. 25 I'm going to make some suggestions about specific WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 27 1 things that I think that could be done that would make 2 you all's job easier and more effective. 3 At the same time, I'd ask you not to ruin 4 what some people are starting here today. We came to 5 a meeting, and it's one of the horror stories that's 6 in that dialogue, in that transcript, but we came to a 7 Bingo Advisory Committee meeting, which a number of 8 items were posted and there was some significant 9 interest, and I did go to get some people there. We 10 had a pretty good attendance at that meeting. There 11 were a couple of items that were to discuss proposed 12 rules, and yet there were no proposed rules, there was 13 nothing there to discuss, and so people who may have 14 come with an interest in talking about those rules or 15 finding out about them came for nothing. There were a 16 couple of items that you all had voted on before, or 17 that you all had asked the staff to look into before. 18 Suzanne, you had a transcript, I think, from a meeting 19 that had occurred a year-and-a-half -- I think it was 20 a year-and-a-half or a year before. On the transcript 21 at that time the staff was looking at it, and that day 22 the staff was looking at it. And people who -- my 23 point is not to criticize the staff. My point is to 24 say people came from a distance to participate in 25 discussion about those things. They were important to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 28 1 them. 2 I get paid to be here so I don't have a 3 real good excuse unless I've got a conflict, but those 4 folks, just like y'all, didn't get paid to be here, so 5 they come in and they sit down and they see these 6 things and then they think, heck, I can't afford to 7 take my time if I'm not going to get my two cents in. 8 Undoubtedly, those items are going to come back up on 9 your agenda again, and when that agenda is published 10 and the people look at it, they don't have any 11 assurance that that business is going to be taken care 12 of that day. 13 So my number one suggestion is, if it's on 14 the agenda, have something meaty and ready to talk 15 about and ready to go. Or have some way -- I realize 16 there is always going to be potential for a slip at 17 the last minute because that's just the way the world 18 works, so we need to at least have some way of 19 informing people, maybe on the Web site again, that 20 there is a slip there and maybe what they are 21 interested in is not going to occur that day. It 22 seems to me that y'all as board members have to insist 23 that that sort of process take place; that there is a 24 match between what you are coming to talk to and that 25 there is a product ready to go on it. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 29 1 I think another thing that you all have to 2 do, whoever serves here, you have to ask more 3 questions. You have to get to the bottom of what it 4 means. This format, I've testified to legislative 5 committees for a long time, and this format is much 6 like a legislative committee. We talk, and y'all sit 7 there. Now, I'm pushy and so we've had some pretty 8 good discussion, I think, but people are -- I think 9 maybe there might be a different format or a way to 10 get some more discussion going where we're not in such 11 a formalistic type of approach here. Every time I 12 meet with any of the people who are involved in bingo 13 day-to-day I learn something new, and if I pose a 14 problem, inevitably they come up with a solution 15 that's something that I haven't thought about. So 16 somehow we've got to get more of what's in the brains 17 out here into the brains in the discussion up here. 18 You guys got to draw more out of them. 19 Also, I think you have to draw more out of 20 the staff. I stood up on the first item because I do 21 think it's important to have the security division 22 functions. My focus is on the cost of it and how we 23 pay for things here. I think we've got to start an 24 approach, we've got to start focusing on that. Is it 25 more expensive to use peace officers? Am I under a WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 30 1 misimpression that peace officers are more involved 2 with that than not? I'm hoping that someone on 3 this -- on this Bingo Advisory Committee now or in the 4 future will take more of an interest in the sort of 5 details, the guts of what we're doing on a day-to-day 6 basis and get yourselves fully informed on that. 7 I suspect that there is a gap between what 8 the public understands about it and what actually goes 9 on, and I think some disappointment, some bad 10 feelings, some lack of appreciation for what the staff 11 does with its limited resources grows out of that gap, 12 and I'm asking you all to help fill that gap by asking 13 more questions, getting more information from the 14 staff. You know, in a way, I'm asking you to grill 15 them a little bit, not for the purpose of criticizing 16 anybody but to get this information elevated to a 17 level of discourse where some people can understand 18 better. That's all. 19 Finally, for the moment, I'd like to say 20 that I don't think you are -- y'all get information 21 far enough in advance, and I don't think when we 22 attend these meetings everybody out here gets the 23 information so we're sort of in a fog. There has got 24 to be a way to get some of that information out. 25 Maybe the Web site is the universeal answer to that. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 31 1 It may be that when Mike came up, if there were extra 2 copies of the report of the security division, that 3 people could have a copy of it. That would be 4 helpful, and we might be able to participate or we 5 might look at it and say, well, that's interesting. 6 What I would probably do is, because these reports -- 7 you all get these reports frequently, I'd probably 8 hold on to those and compile them over time and look 9 to try to see if I could divine any conclusions from 10 them. 11 So I would ask that you, number one, if 12 it's on the agenda, that there be substance there to 13 deal with; number two, that you ask good questions and 14 get good information on the agenda; and, number three, 15 that you share it with the folks out here; and, I 16 guess, number four, if there is a way we could get a 17 different kind of format where we're not in this 18 formalistic approach and there is more discourse 19 between people that maybe that would help. 20 Suzanne, you and I know each other a little 21 bit better than some of the other folks. I'd like to 22 pick on you for just a second. Your testimony at the 23 hearing on the public rules the other day and one of 24 your colleagues, since he's not here to defend himself 25 I won't mention him by name, you all made some real WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 32 1 good points, they were in great detail, they were, I 2 think, worthy of taking note, and I think the rules 3 ought to be changed to reflect those. My recollection 4 is not -- is that we didn't have that level of 5 discussion when those rules came before the Bingo 6 Advisory Committee, and you all voted to go ahead and 7 post those up. My guess is you probably didn't have 8 much advance notice and the chance to go through them 9 because I didn't at that meeting. You may have gotten 10 a better notice on that. But that's the kind of 11 information that I think ought to be shared in these 12 kinds of meetings, and a little more roll up the shirt 13 sleeves and dig into it. 14 I hope I haven't come across as being 15 critical personally of anybody, but I'm going to do 16 what I said I would do, and I would hope that the 17 Bingo Advisory Committee will make it worth 18 everybody's worthwhile to do that. 19 If there is any questions, I'll be glad to 20 answer them; otherwise, I'll sit down and quit hogging 21 the podium. 22 CHAIR NEINAST: I have a couple, Steve. 23 MR. BRESNEN: Yes, sir. 24 CHAIR NEINAST: The Enabling Act just 25 requires the committee to meet at least quarterly. Do WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 33 1 you think a quarterly meeting is sufficient or should 2 there be more meetings? 3 MR. BRESNEN: I'd have two answers to that. 4 I think, first of all, it depends on the quality of 5 the meeting; and, two, I think it depends on the 6 extent to which you will use -- well, let me give 7 three answers. It depends on the quality of the 8 meeting. If we get real meaty on those rules right 9 there, what it might have done was given the staff 10 some direction. I'm harking back to this meeting that 11 I'm talking about earlier. Then before those rules 12 got proposed, the staff might have gone back and made 13 changes to them before they went to the commission 14 that would then not have necessitated the public 15 hearing that was held the other day. I'm just saying 16 maybe. I'm speculating. It's not clear. And so that 17 would have cut out one job that they have had to 18 attend to and do. So the quality of that meeting 19 would have affected other events and how much time we 20 spent. 21 Number two, I really like the idea, and you 22 all have done this a couple of times now and I 23 strongly urge you to continue doing it, is to use a 24 subcommittee sometimes to get better information in 25 advance of the meeting to where they can come in and WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 34 1 they can brief you other members because nobody can 2 attend to this all the time. You have all got other 3 things to do, and I understand you are not getting 4 paid to do it. So I think that might be a way of not 5 necessarily having a whole lot more meetings, by using 6 a subcommittee from time to time on really important 7 issues. 8 And, thirdly, I think that how you conduct 9 the meetings about -- how you get issues on your 10 agenda and where you conduct them is really important. 11 Taking this around the state here I think is extremely 12 important. People will become more attuned, I think, 13 if you go out and expose it to them some in Lubbock, 14 Texas, and Brownsville, Texas, and El Paso and 15 Texarkana and whatever. I think that's going to kind 16 of dictate as a practical matter what you need to do 17 to get more people involved and have more meetings. I 18 hope I have been responsive to your question. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: You have, and another 20 question I would have of Billy, would it be feasible 21 for the members to each get the notebook at least a 22 week in advance with some backup material? Would it 23 be feasible, Billy, to post all of that material on 24 the Web site at the time it's mailed out to members of 25 the committee? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 35 1 MR. ATKINS: I would guess it would, 2 Mr. Chairman. That's something that I would like to 3 consider a little further, and that's one of the 4 things I wanted to follow up with Steve on. I'm not 5 aware of other types of bodies where all of the 6 information that's being provided to the body, 7 either -- you referenced a legislative committee, the 8 advisory committee, the Lottery Commission, for that 9 matter, is provided to everyone for discussion, and I 10 would -- I mean, it would represent again additional 11 work on the staff's behalf to, you know, even put it 12 up on the Web, but I'm sure we could in some format do 13 that. 14 MR. TAWIL: The rules are already up there, 15 aren't they, Billy? 16 MR. ATKINS: Yes. 17 MR. TAWIL: The security division is the 18 only one that I thought, until he talked about it 19 today, might be something for you to look at, and it 20 seemed like it's always a single page. It could 21 easily be posted. 22 MR. BRESNEN: Well, I think you have to 23 make some judgments. I'm not trying to get you all to 24 adopt hard and fast rules about anything. I'm just 25 trying to make it better, and I do think -- Billy, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 36 1 I've been to a bunch of legislative hearings where 2 they are up there talking about something and you 3 don't have the slightest idea what they are talking 4 about. I've also been to a bunch of them where there 5 are a couple boxes sitting in the back and everybody 6 is back there clawing and if I'm first, I get one and 7 if I'm not, I don't. So it might be that a standard 8 practice is to have 20 or 25 copies and, hey, if you 9 are late, share with your neighbor. I mean we're 10 going to have to be practical about this. It drives 11 up the cost. I'm concerned about cost. The more 12 copies you make, the more cost. So it may be a 13 balance between getting things on the Web site, having 14 25 copies or just making a decision, hey, this didn't 15 look like this was real important for everybody to 16 have, if you are interested in a copy, come up 17 afterwards and I'll get it. 18 MR. TAWIL: Let me ask a question. I know 19 you have said this to me before and that is when 20 someone tries to interact with the Lottery Commission 21 staff, whether it's security or audit or accounting or 22 whatever, they generally have a standoffish attitude, 23 and I have had several people complain to me about 24 that. Even my own personal experience has been that 25 they are very standoffish. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 37 1 MR. BRESNEN: That's not been my 2 experience. 3 MR. TAWIL: Okay. Well, you have to go 4 through -- you have to file an Open Records Act. 5 MR. BRESNEN: If you want any information, 6 you have to file an Open Records request. 7 MR. TAWIL: With regards to any information 8 about the status of something that may relate to you, 9 they generally are fairly standoffish about that. I'm 10 wondering if this committee could serve as a tool, 11 like an ombudsman, a subcommittee of whatever 12 individuals, members of the advisory committee could 13 be an avenue for people to bring their frustration and 14 complaints to and then allows the committee to follow 15 up and recommend. 16 MR. BRESNEN: Well, I think people should 17 be doing that. I think people should be approaching 18 you and informing you. That's our duty. You know, 19 that's our duty. I don't think you necessarily -- I 20 don't think it's incumbent upon you to do that. I 21 think all of y'all, and I mean all of y'all, everybody 22 behind me, needs to know who you all are, what your 23 involvement is, and they need to be involved. That's 24 their duty. 25 I want to make something real clear. I've WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 38 1 said this publicly and I've said it privately. My 2 complaints don't have to do with my day-to-day 3 interaction with the staff. If I call Billy or Mike 4 or Phil or any of those folks, now, Mr. Chairman, I 5 believe I've said this to you in private, I think on a 6 case-by-case basis the staff is very responsive, and I 7 get what I need. It's at this policy level that I'm 8 trying to focus. I'm trying to get you all to do and 9 this committee to function better, not to deal 10 necessarily with individual cases but to be working on 11 these policy issues. And there is a tendency to 12 personalize things or to get upset about an individual 13 case, and I'm not. I'm using individual cases as 14 examples for how things might be better on a policy 15 level, and I want to be real clear about that. I find 16 the staff -- I think my personal rapport with the 17 staff is really good except when I write rude letters, 18 and I don't blame them for that. So I want to be real 19 clear about that. 20 I also want to be real clear, though, that 21 people out here, your constituency, ought to be able 22 to approach you and say I'm having this kind of 23 problem, and I think you all have to have some 24 interaction with the staff, not necessarily as an 25 effort to resolve the individual case because they WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 39 1 have certain formal duties that they have to be 2 responsible for and processes that they have to go 3 through, but so you will know and they will know and 4 there is a feedback mechanism where you can make 5 policy changes going forward. 6 CHAIR NEINAST: Let me make two comments, 7 if I may. We have an informal procedure here, Steve, 8 that works sometimes, most of the time it doesn't, but 9 what is supposed to happen, if there is going to be an 10 agenda item, the person responsible for that agenda is 11 supposed to submit a form that will be submitted to 12 the rest of the committee, which includes among other 13 things, if it is an item that's going to require 14 action, to have the motion set out that is going to be 15 presented and then backup material. And that applies 16 to -- I get calls from some members of the community 17 who want to do that, I say okay, here's the procedure, 18 send it in in writing that this is what you want to 19 consider, this is what you are going to propose as a 20 motion and backup material. Our response from, at 21 least those that I have talked with, have been nil 22 when we asked for that. We want them to come prepared 23 also, so I want to address this to y'all, as you did. 24 If you want something on the agenda, give us more 25 background to start with other than just let's talk WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 40 1 about what color the bingo cards are going to be, for 2 example. And so that procedure is in effect, and -- 3 MR. BRESNEN: I think that's fair enough, 4 and I think that would be something that would lend 5 itself to put out on the Web site. Now, everybody 6 back here has got to start looking at that Web site, 7 and I know the Internet is a wonderful thing but it's 8 not for everybody. Somehow people need to know that. 9 I've never really -- you know, like I said, I'm pushy 10 so I call you up or I'll call Billy or one of you all 11 up and say let's get this on the agenda, and I've been 12 able to do that. But I'm not sure everybody back 13 there knows what they ought to do to do that. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. And the second item 15 is rather than post all of this on the Web because 16 sometimes these books can get kind of thick. 17 MR. BRESNEN: Yes, sir. 18 CHAIR NEINAST: If when you see the agenda 19 or when anyone sees the agenda and say I've got an 20 interest in item number seven or whatever, if you 21 could call the division and say would you send me the 22 backup material on that. You know, could we send out 23 the -- it's not a part of the record then. Just send 24 out the backup material that we have in-house at the 25 time on that particular item so you would have it in WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 41 1 hand before you got here. 2 MR. ATKINS: I would think we could. I 3 don't know if we would have to charge or not. I don't 4 see why we couldn't. 5 MR. BRESNEN: Okay. The expense is no 6 problem in my case. In some other cases it may be, 7 but there definitely has to be some more informal ways 8 of doing this. But we don't have to solve this whole 9 problem today, but I did want to get it -- did want to 10 start talking about some solutions out there. 11 MR. TAWIL: Steve, what about having, you 12 know, when the committee convenes to start a new 13 committee, obviously when we go through these 14 nominations, and I'm not sure if our chairman is going 15 to be with us in the next cycle, I didn't see your 16 name listed on renewal, but we would convene and 17 introduce the new members. I've gone through there 18 several times, we never have put out an analyzed 19 vision of what we hope to accomplish and list those 20 items that would occur over a span of, say, twelve 21 months, have that posted where everybody knows what's 22 going to occur, have subcommittees created to follow 23 these items, and then we can evaluate ourselves at the 24 end of the year and see how much of it was done and 25 how much of it was accomplished and how much of it WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 42 1 went forward. 2 MR. BRESNEN: I think that's spoken exactly 3 like a true engineer. 4 MR. TAWIL: What's wrong with that? 5 MR. BRESNEN: There's not a thing wrong 6 with it. I think it's a great idea. I think you have 7 to have a blueprint. 8 MR. TAWIL: Okay. I think we're operating 9 in two dimensions. You know, we get a call, they say, 10 okay, what agenda items have you fielded from the 11 field people in the industry that are concerned. Of 12 course, I'll get a call to get an item on the agenda 13 because someone wanted it there or someone calls and 14 says, okay, we've got this much time until the next 15 meeting, what's -- so we're operating in two 16 dimensions whereas we don't look out far enough to -- 17 MR. BRESNEN: I think that's a real good 18 idea to have a blueprint as long as you leave yourself 19 enough flexibility to deal with these issues that may 20 come up from the public. 21 MR. TAWIL: Would that have a negative 22 impact on the division, on the staff? Mr. Chairman, 23 do you understand where I'm trying to go with this in 24 terms of giving us a vision and a work plan? It would 25 be more effective. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 43 1 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, let's defer that 2 until the item that we're talking about whether this 3 should be -- I've had the same idea, particularly with 4 a new -- when you have newly organized or new members. 5 It definitely has to be some type of briefing, maybe 6 you walk through the division and bring everyone up to 7 speed which we've never done. 8 MR. BRESNEN: I would suggest when you 9 develop that work plan that you give folks out here an 10 opportunity to say things that they would like to see 11 on it. We've been talking with the staff, and I think 12 I've spoken on this issue with y'all before on 13 the definitions in the statute that we think are 14 causing -- the vagueness in the statutes causing some 15 problems. We'd like to see some rules there. So if 16 we're starting from a blank slate here, I'd like the 17 opportunity to come before you and say we have the 18 following three items that we think would be good for 19 rule-making and then ask you guys to maybe do some 20 informal work with some people to kind of push it 21 along a little bit and work that way. So it's a 22 little bit more starting in the field and coming 23 forward as you start that planning process. 24 I like the idea, though, of having some way 25 of sort of setting an agenda that goes out a little WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 44 1 further, yes, sir. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: Any other questions or 3 comments? Thank you. 4 MR. BRESNEN: I appreciate your time. 5 MR. ATKINS: I just wanted, Steve, to 6 comment on a couple of things. You and I have had 7 some discussions on this, and I appreciate you 8 bringing it forward and raising the issue. 9 One thing that you touched on and you 10 identified and I just want to reiterate is the fact 11 that there have been times when there have been items 12 on the agenda that either the staff wasn't prepared at 13 the time or for whatever reason the committee, their 14 pleasure was to pass on that item, and you mentioned 15 this but I just wanted to make sure that everybody was 16 clear on it, that it has been our practice in the past 17 and I think may continue to be in an overabundance of 18 caution, if we think something is going to come up to 19 go ahead and put it out there so that people will have 20 the benefit of knowing that. 21 MR. BRESNEN: Sure. 22 MR. ATKINS: I was going to hold off on 23 these but I would like to get some input from you and 24 the other speakers as to some methods that we think 25 may help improve this process, if that's okay, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 45 1 Mr. Chairman. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: Yes. 3 MR. ATKINS: And the first one, and it kind 4 of goes back to what Saleem was talking about with 5 subcommittees, one of the things that the staff 6 envisioned that we would get from the Bingo Advisory 7 Committee is individuals who would be able to bring a 8 broad range of input from specifically, say, the 9 organizations that they were a member of that 10 conducted, so, I'll pick on David since he's here, as 11 a member of the Knights of Columbus, he would have the 12 ability to gather a lot of input from other K of C 13 organizations around the state that conduct bingo and 14 bring that to this table. 15 One of the things that we've thought about 16 is, there is nothing to prevent members of the 17 advisory committee, as long as they don't have a 18 quorum, of holding smaller, for lack of a better word, 19 town hall meetings in a certain area, and that would 20 be something where the staff again through the Web 21 site, through mail notification, could notify 22 organizations in a specific area that, you know, these 23 two or three Advisory Committee members were going to 24 be at this location on this day and, you know, feel 25 free to come talk about whatever you want to, and WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 46 1 then, you know, hold them throughout the state and use 2 that as a means to bubble information up to the 3 advisory committee level. 4 MR. BRESNEN: I really like that idea, and 5 if it's going to be in an area where one of my clients 6 is located, I'll be glad to get on the phone and do a 7 phone bank to try to turn some people out to 8 participate in those. 9 MR. ATKINS: Okay. And another thing we 10 thought about in relation to the rules and the ability 11 to get the broadest input on the rules possible is to 12 do something similar to what they do down at the 13 Capitol and have different readings, and so we would 14 say at one committee meeting we would, you know, first 15 propose the rule, maybe give, you know, a brief 16 description of what it is, et cetera, and distribute 17 copies of that rule and then at the following meeting 18 try and have what I think you called the meeting 19 discussion so that folks have had a chance to look at 20 it, talk to one another about it, but have us sit down 21 then and talk about the substance of the rule. It 22 would probably require a little more frequent, you 23 know, meetings than on a quarterly basis, but, still, 24 I think that would give us the opportunity to get that 25 information out there and get a lot of that feedback WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 47 1 back. 2 MR. BRESNEN: I think that's a great idea, 3 too. If you are going to do that, I would suggest 4 that at that first meeting there be a real focus on 5 what the problem is that the rule is responding to. I 6 think that's the missing link in a lot of the 7 discussion. I will come back to that a little later 8 on, but I like that. Multiple bites added, the 9 opportunity, sometimes you can't turn it out until 10 shortly before the meeting, people get a chance to 11 give their off-the-cuff impressions, you get to hear 12 what the problem is about and you guys get the 13 opportunity to sell, if you will, explain what the -- 14 why you are doing what you are doing and then people 15 get to go off and get some feedback maybe through 16 those town hall type things and then come back for a 17 second reading. I think that's a great idea. 18 MR. ATKINS: Well, you're exactly right. 19 I'm reading the transcript now from the last public 20 hearing, and I haven't got to a lot of substantive 21 discussion yet, but I agree when folks have a chance 22 to look at it and really consider it, they do have an 23 opportunity to bring forth information that we just 24 overlook. So I just want to put those out now for the 25 other speakers that are coming up to consider also and WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 48 1 get their input on what they think about that. 2 MR. BRESNEN: Great. Thank you. I 3 appreciate that. 4 CHAIR NEINAST: Billy, you stole just a 5 little bit of my thunder. I was going to make a 6 recommendation that was a little bit different from 7 yours, but both of them can be done, I think. One is 8 to, in effect, informally constitute this committee as 9 you might say a speaker's bureau and put out on the 10 Web page and in the newsletter that any of the members 11 are available to come out and talk to any organization 12 about what the committee does, and use that as a way 13 to get input from groups that they talk to. Just a 14 little variation from what you were proposing, but I 15 think that if -- we'd have to limit it, of course. We 16 wouldn't want our vice-chairman going from Lubbock to 17 Galveston to make that talk. 18 MR. ATKINS: She may want to. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: We'll send Virginia. But 20 that's the type of thing that might get a little more 21 input from the field if we make ourselves available 22 for that, and we'll have to see which of the members 23 of the committee would be willing to do that. 24 Thank you, Steve. 25 MR. RINEHART: Why couldn't we do that in WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 49 1 the educational classes where we go out on the 2 education? We've got all the halls in that area -- we 3 have all the halls and the representatives and 4 everyone at these educational seminars that we have 5 each year. Why couldn't we do that or do some of it 6 along with that? 7 MR. ATKINS: We could. That's a great 8 idea. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. Fred Miccio would 10 like to address this. 11 MR. MICCIO: Fred Miccio, representing the 12 Knights of Columbus. 13 He just made some good points. I'd just 14 like to make a couple of comments on it. Number one, 15 I want to commend you people for the job you've been 16 doing, but it's pretty hard to make people happy when 17 you can't get people to participate. If you look 18 around and see the audience today, that should answer 19 some of our questions. The question is, we need to 20 get this out to the general public and get it out in 21 time so we can respond to it. Electronics by itself 22 is just not getting to everybody. We got this stuff 23 out maybe in the form of a bulletin, a bingo bulletin, 24 but whatever time it takes, whenever we are going to 25 have this stuff going on and then give us sufficient WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 50 1 time to respond on it, I'm sure we'll get turnouts 2 like we did today. 3 That's all I have. 4 CHAIR NEINAST: Questions? 5 MS. TAYLOR: Fred, what you are asking is 6 that the agenda gets mailed out prior to each BAC 7 meeting? 8 MR. MICCIO: Send out like the bingo 9 bulletin, then we're sure charities are going to get 10 it, halls are going to get it. There is no chance 11 that somebody might get an e-mail and drop it on the 12 desk and nobody will get it, whatever. But I got it 13 right away. I got the mail, I seen it right away, I 14 knew I had to come up here. Thank you. 15 CHAIR NEINAST: Thank you, Fred. 16 Mr. Hutchings, Mr. Charles Hutchings. 17 MR. HUTCHINGS: Good morning. My name is 18 Charles Hutchings. I represent Geodesics, that's a 19 commercial lessor. I'm also a member of organizations 20 that play bingo. 21 On this here, I echo what Steve has 22 basically said. The only thing else I'd like to 23 comment on, and, Mr. Chairman, please don't take this 24 as a personal attack or anything like that, it's not 25 meant to be, I believe this is a Bingo Advisory WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 51 1 Committee, that the chairman and vice-chairman or 2 however it is set up or arranged should actually be 3 from within the bingo industry so that when we 4 approach this dais to speak about the problems we have 5 that the person sitting up there inherently just 6 knows, you know, what the discussion is, what it's 7 about and understands the process. That's all I have 8 to add. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: I appreciate your comment, 10 Mr. Hutchings, but do you realize that the makeup of 11 this committee is set by statute? 12 MR. HUTCHINGS: Yes, sir. I have no 13 problem with the general public being on the board. 14 What I'm saying is the chairman and the vice-chairman 15 should be from within the bingo industry so when 16 people like myself walk up here to talk about bingo, 17 we're -- you, like I say, you do an excellent job 18 sitting up here. I've been to several of the meetings 19 and you do an excellent job, but at the same time I've 20 seen when we get into the specifics of bingo and what 21 goes on in bingo that you just don't -- what am I 22 trying to say? You are just not in the industry and 23 that it just doesn't resonate with you like it would 24 some of these other people up here. That's all I'm 25 saying. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 52 1 MS. BRACKETT: What do you mean by bingo 2 industry? 3 MR. HUTCHINGS: The charities -- what all 4 is represented up here? We have the charities, we 5 have the -- 6 MS. BRACKETT: But like a conductor is 7 okay? 8 MR. HUTCHINGS: The conductors -- 9 MR. ATKINS: A licensee. 10 MR. HUTCHINGS: Even the lessors understand 11 bingo. Even down to -- well, we do. We have to. 12 Even down -- 13 MR. TAWIL: Floor sales. 14 MR. HUTCHINGS: The manufacturers, at least 15 they know the products and what goes on with them. 16 The distributors certainly understand it, they deal 17 with the people who buy their products every day. 18 They understand what's going on out there with bingo, 19 and, like I say, it's not a personal attack on you, 20 sir. It's just my opinion that that's the way, you 21 know, how it should be done. Thank you. 22 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. Thank you. Janice 23 Woods. 24 MS. WOODS: I'd like to speak on Item 6. 25 But I'll respond if you want me to. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 53 1 CHAIR NEINAST: Those are the only forms I 2 have of anyone interested in commenting on Number 5. 3 Is there anyone who would like to comment on that 4 item? 5 Okay. Then let's turn to a discussion -- 6 MR. TAWIL: Mr. Chairman, are we going to 7 take any action on that item? 8 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, no. Now we're 9 going to turn to discussion. 10 MS. TAYLOR: One second. There is one 11 thing that I think would really help the BAC is that 12 anytime we bring a motion to the table, I think we 13 need to put a time line on that individual motion of 14 what we hope to accomplish and when we think it will 15 be accomplished. If we may can pass a motion on 16 something that we agree on that is a good thing and we 17 pass our motion that, for whatever rule or topic we're 18 discussing, I believe that we need to at that time put 19 a time line with that of when we think that this item 20 is going to be accomplished. 21 MR. TAWIL: And the person who made the 22 motion ought to be the one that follows it. 23 MS. TAYLOR: I think that way maybe we 24 won't have the same items coming back over and over 25 again and we can move forward on them. If we WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 54 1 establish our goals, then maybe we can accomplish 2 them. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: I think it's an excellent 4 idea, and I think Steve touched on that in his 5 address. We do have another person who would like to 6 address the issue, and that's Scott Ingerman. 7 MR. INGERMAN: Scott Ingerman, San Antonio, 8 commercial lessor. 9 Mainly just to respond to the things that 10 Steve said. A couple things. The first thing, Billy 11 said there was 14,000 letters sent out for board 12 appointees, only 37 people responded. I don't think a 13 lot of people know about this process, and some of the 14 people that do know about this process are 15 disenchanted about the process. Whether they are 16 correct or not, they feel like nothing really -- 17 nothing really happens here. We all get to talk about 18 our views, but at the end of the day things that are 19 discussed are either not followed through with or just 20 cast aside, forgotten about, which was mentioned when 21 Steve was talking. 22 The process in getting things on the agenda 23 here was also mentioned. You know, you want us to 24 send in what we want put on the agenda, you want us to 25 send you backup information so we're prepared, also. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 55 1 Steve said it several times, and I agree with them. I 2 think the big problem here is the information. We 3 don't get the information that we need on our problems 4 to give -- to come up with the backup information. 5 Something as simple as the list of the nominees, which 6 I don't think is top secret information, I don't have 7 a list, it wasn't on the Web site, I don't know if 8 anyone else has a list or if there was any available 9 to anybody else, but I can't comment on it because I 10 never saw a list of the people, the 37 people that did 11 want to be nominated to this. That is a perfect 12 example of the lack of information that comes to us as 13 operators or charities or just the general public that 14 we need so we can give you positive feedback. 15 The third thing is, you know, that hit me 16 pretty hard is Suzanne saying time line. A lot of 17 time we talk about issues, everybody agrees it's a 18 good idea, we even have a unanimous yes, that's 19 fantastic, but there is no date, we're going to do 20 this in the next six months, we're going to do this in 21 the next legislative session, we're going to do this 22 in the next meeting, I mean there is no set time line, 23 and sometimes, again I've been to several meetings 24 last year, we'll bring it up next meeting, and then 25 the next meeting I come it's not on the agenda, so WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 56 1 sometimes when there is a time line, again it's 2 dropped. Again I don't know the reason why either. 3 I'm not in the loop so I don't know why that issue is 4 dropped, but if something is decided that it's not a 5 good idea, I think that people should be informed of 6 that, also, so when they come expecting to see it 7 because it was told by the committee that it was going 8 to be addressed next meeting, you know, they don't 9 show up or at least they can understand why. So these 10 are my comments on Number 5. 11 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, thank you, Scott, and 12 I want to say thank you for those -- y'all out there, 13 as Steve Bresnen referred to you, Scott is one of the 14 regular attendees, and he comes and really 15 participates in our discussions. I wish we had more 16 like you, Scott. You brought some good ideas today 17 and previously. 18 A couple of observations, as I mentioned 19 when we considered the nominations, this is the first 20 time this has been done. This is a change I think for 21 the better that the committee gets into the nomination 22 process. Previously it just went directly to the 23 Lottery Commission and they made their decisions from 24 the list or possibly, I don't know, based on 25 recommendations from the division, so this is a change WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 57 1 and I think it's going to be a change for the better 2 as we work out the problems that might be inherent, 3 like we developed one today. Saleem brought up today 4 we ought to have a subcommittee to go into this in 5 more detail, an excellent idea. 6 The other item that you certainly are aware 7 of and it impacts to a certain extent on what Suzanne 8 suggested, I think that's an excellent suggestion 9 also, but, as you know, we're an advisory committee 10 only. We cannot require any action by either the 11 division or the Lottery Commission. The only thing we 12 can do is when we see a problem, recommend it to the 13 Lottery Commission, and they can do what they want 14 with it and set a time limit or not. Excellent 15 suggestion, but I just want you to be aware that, I 16 think you are aware, but some in the audience may not 17 be aware of the fact that we cannot just sit here and 18 say this will be done. 19 MR. INGERMAN: Again, I understand the 20 committee's position exactly, but if we vote 21 unanimously to advise the Lottery Commission on 22 something, if nothing is done about it, do we have the 23 right to at least know why? Did we unanimously vote 24 that we have a panel of educated people that are in 25 the industry that vote that this is a good idea and WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 58 1 then again you are only advising, but still the powers 2 that be decide that this is not a good idea, can we 3 get some kind of explanation on, you know, where we 4 are misguided? Maybe we can approach it at a 5 different angle if we got that information. 6 CHAIR NEINAST: And that's the way it 7 works, that I make any report or whoever is sitting as 8 chairman does make a report to the next meeting of the 9 Lottery Commission in which one of the things that is 10 recommended are those actions where a motion was made 11 to take certain action, and that is presented to the 12 commission. At the next meeting of the advisory 13 committee, then whoever made that presentation to the 14 Lottery Commission reports what action they took. I 15 mentioned one today. We went up to the Lottery 16 Commission with the recommendation that we be allowed 17 to hold meetings outside the Austin area. It was 18 denied the first time, I reported back to the 19 commission, through the committee, we discussed it 20 again, and I went back to them with more information 21 and they approved it. So there is feedback. It's 22 kind of hard to follow because you don't necessarily 23 get a copy of the agenda for the Lottery Commission 24 and to be there when the presentation is made, and you 25 may not be aware of the fact that it's going to be WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 59 1 reported back to the committee. That's something we 2 have to look into as to how we get this information 3 out to the bingo community because there is this 4 byplay between the committee and the commission that 5 may not be getting out to the -- 6 MR. INGERMAN: Exactly. Yeah, that stuff 7 is intertwined. If something I feel strongly about is 8 going to be at the commission meeting, I would like to 9 know about it so I could attend that, also. And help 10 follow through with, you know, maybe give an 11 explanation. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, normally for 13 information, what we do here, sometimes -- there have 14 been one or two cases where the Lottery Commission met 15 the day after and we may not have made that, but it's 16 normally the Bingo Advisory Committee report is an 17 agenda item on the Lottery Commission at the next 18 meeting, so the next one we know of right now is April 19 the 26th, and I'll make a report that will be much 20 more detailed and longer than the ones I usually make. 21 Is there a change to that, Billy? Still 22 April 26th? 23 MR. ATKINS: Still April 26th, but that's 24 still also tentative. And just also, Scott, real 25 quickly to follow up on what Bill was saying, not only WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 60 1 does Bill provide a report on the committee's 2 activities, whether it's written or oral or a 3 combination of both, not only that, but I think it's 4 important for everybody to know that the chair of the 5 Lottery Commission, who is the designated bingo 6 representative, has been to most if not all of the 7 advisory committee meetings, so he's able to, you 8 know, even to a degree supplement some of that 9 information that Bill or whoever gives at the 10 commission meeting. 11 MR. INGERMAN: Thank you. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: Any questions or comments 13 on Scott's position? 14 Thank you, Scott. 15 Now the committee goes back to that item 16 for our own consideration and discussion and any 17 action that we want to take in the form of a motion or 18 report to the committee. The floor is now open for 19 comments from any one of the committee members. 20 Saleem, do you have something to add? 21 MR. TAWIL: Yes, sir, I think to be more 22 effective we need to be an independent body and that 23 is we need to be thinking more about what the industry 24 needs and does and the problems that they have and 25 work with those issues and directly report those to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 61 1 the commission and not be concerned about how it 2 impacts the staff or how much work it puts on them or 3 whatever. We need to be more active in our regions 4 anyway. I'm willing to take any kind of information, 5 make my time available to anybody in the region, take 6 whatever complaints or any issues that relate to bingo 7 and try to work with those through the committee and 8 see that they are carried forward. 9 We need to have a plan. I don't know of 10 any business that operates in two dimensions, none of 11 them that succeed. They all fail if you operate in 12 two dimensions. We need to operate in a capacity 13 where we recognize we have goals to achieve and get 14 them accomplished. We need to follow up on issues, so 15 the party is over really. For this committee to be 16 effective, we need to be proactive. We need to really 17 work and be of value to the commissioner. 18 Commissioner Clowe has a lot of responsibility in 19 running the Lottery Commission in addition to being 20 our contact with the commission himself. 21 So the more we do that's of a positive 22 nature, I think a lot -- see, the situation -- I'm 23 involved in a different industry aside from this where 24 people do have the ability to spend on lawyers and 25 lobbyists and so on. This industry doesn't. There is WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 62 1 very few lawyers that can help a lot of these people. 2 There are very few lobbyists. The reason is a lot of 3 these people that are involved with charitable 4 organizations, they don't have any money, so their 5 case cannot be carried forward very easily, and I 6 would believe the advisory committee can fill a huge 7 gap there. When somebody comes up against the Lottery 8 Commission through the staff and division, you know, 9 if they get no action, they got nowhere to turn, 10 especially if they can't afford a lawyer, if they 11 can't afford a lobbyist, they got nowhere to go. 12 Nowhere to go. And all those people out there are 13 aware that this committee can carry action forward for 14 them, typically those that just have nowhere to turn, 15 and they are on the brink of collapse because they are 16 unable to make the process work for them. 17 So that's how we can be effective as a 18 committee, have an annual plan, have a vision to be 19 followed through and carried, be accessible and 20 available and promote the idea that we're open door. 21 I'm open door to anybody in the industry. I don't 22 care what your role is. I'm willing to take the time 23 and go and carry that forward. 24 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, in what way have we 25 not been doing that? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 63 1 MR. TAWIL: We've been operating in two 2 dimensions. I get a book here and then two or three 3 weeks or a week -- I get the book about three or four 4 days, maybe -- at the most that I've gotten it early 5 would be a week before the meeting, and that's only 6 because somebody put it in the mail on a Friday for 7 the following week, but other than that, there is no 8 interaction or activity of this committee until we 9 meet and then -- a good example is today. There is 10 about -- I don't know how many forms here for 11 nominations, I didn't count them individually, but we 12 cannot come in here and sit down and say, okay, let's 13 act on these. That's the silliest thing I've ever 14 heard. I can't even imagine anybody even thinking to 15 do that. So that's the kind of thing I'm talking 16 about we need to do away with. 17 I'm willing to put my time in. It doesn't 18 matter. I want to be positive and effective. I know 19 these people out there, they are not stupid. They 20 understand. They are frustrated, they are tired of 21 it. They just go on from time to time and just do the 22 best they can. They don't have a lot of money. They 23 are not walking around like Sprint PCS or AT&T. They 24 are not those kinds of organizations. I deal in that 25 industry. I know. I've got several lawyers working WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 64 1 on my behalf in communications, but these people can't 2 do that. Our structure is that way. This is a body 3 of law and rules, which is great, we abide by them, 4 but in this industry, those people cannot move up the 5 line. So we have to be the instrument. That's what 6 the Advisory Committee is for. If we capture that 7 vision and move forward, we would make a big change 8 and impact, a positive impact. So that's my say on 9 all this. And whatever it takes to do that, I think 10 we ought to devote the time to it. 11 CHAIR NEINAST: If I understand what you 12 are saying is that we have not made ourselves 13 available of the industry, and that surprises me. I 14 know of nobody on this committee who has refused to 15 talk with anyone, and we've invited -- 16 MR. TAWIL: Regardless of the fact -- 17 CHAIR NEINAST: -- we've invited people to 18 come -- 19 MR. TAWIL: This has been ineffective. 20 Like this here, we sit up here, we do a motion, we 21 pass it and that's the last you hear about it. It 22 goes in Davey Jones' locker. A year-and-a-half later 23 somebody says, look, here it is in the transcript, we 24 didn't do nothing about it. That's right, we didn't. 25 You know? Or somebody -- we took two meetings to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 65 1 discuss some issue last year that had to do with the 2 staff and the staff had the audacity to say, you know 3 what, I don't like your recommendations. They say, 4 you don't recommend the way I wanted, I'm going to go 5 around you anyway. 6 CHAIR NEINAST: What issue was that? 7 Recent issue. 8 MR. TAWIL: I don't remember. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, I think if you're 10 going to make an allegation like that against the 11 committee -- 12 MS. TAYLOR: Summary suspension. 13 MR. TAWIL: Summary suspension, there you 14 go right there. 15 MR. ATKINS: One at a time. 16 MR. TAWIL: Summary suspension is a good 17 example. I was really appalled. It had nothing to do 18 with me individually. It had really no bearing 19 positive or negative on me, but I'm sitting here being 20 part of the process, trying to operate intelligently 21 and deal with issues in a proper way, so we go through 22 the process, we have a subcommittee hearing, we meet, 23 we do all of this, it's presented, we make a 24 recommendation that the division doesn't like. The 25 division says, you know what, it doesn't matter, I'm WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 66 1 going to go around you anyway. That is not right. 2 MR. ATKINS: Saleem, I'm going to disagree 3 with your representation. The record will show -- 4 MR. TAWIL: The record speaks for itself. 5 MR. ATKINS: May I finish? The record will 6 show that there was a recommendation made to the 7 Lottery Commission by the Bingo Advisory Committee 8 that they did not support the staff's proposal for 9 summary suspension authority. And the staff made 10 their recommendation, they did, and the commission 11 chose to side with the staff. 12 MR. TAWIL: You shouldn't be part of this 13 process interacting with it, helping to promote it, 14 and then go separately and do something differently. 15 That's what I'm complaining about. 16 MR. ATKINS: Well, and if the support 17 services that the staff provides the committee feels 18 isn't necessary, that's the committee's decision. 19 MR. TAWIL: Well, I think we ought to be 20 acting on it. We ought to be an independent body 21 that's of value to the commission, that we need to be 22 able -- when Chairman Clowe looks at something there, 23 he knows that it's coming from this group and it's 24 fielded from the people out there and this is what the 25 industry is trying to -- we're a feedback system for WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 67 1 his ear and his eyes so he can understand and make his 2 decisions in the best way he feels like he needs to. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: And that's exactly what he 4 did in that particular case. He got the input from 5 the committee because I gave it to him. It was within 6 their realm to decide what they want to do because we 7 are just an advisory committee. They took that 8 advice, they listened to the position of the division, 9 and we do not control the division. We have 10 absolutely no legal authority to control the division 11 to tell them what to do. They are perfectly free to 12 go with the committee, which they did, and the 13 committee for whatever its reasons or within its 14 prerogative -- 15 MR. TAWIL: Well, since Billy is going to 16 participate, I think what should have happened is he 17 should have told us here's my position on this, here's 18 the backup information, let me see if I can persuade 19 you all to see my point of view, and then we go from 20 there as opposed to being told at the end of the 21 process, you know what, I don't like your decision, 22 I'm going to go around you. 23 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, that's not to be -- 24 we're saying the same thing over and over. That's not 25 the function of our -- WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 68 1 MR. TAWIL: Well, we're talking about 2 effectiveness in this committee. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: And we cannot -- that would 4 be giving us absolute control over the division -- 5 MR. TAWIL: What's wrong with that? What's 6 wrong with that? 7 CHAIR NEINAST: We don't have it. We don't 8 have -- 9 MR. TAWIL: I'm not asking for control. 10 I'm asking for input that's open and forthright to 11 begin with. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: And -- 13 MR. TAWIL: The other thing is, is that if 14 you want to talk about -- we're talking about 15 effectiveness, Mr. Chairman. I'm just letting you 16 know honestly and openly the effective -- the symptom 17 here, we've been hearing the symptom for a year from 18 these people. I've been sitting on this committee for 19 more than a year and finally distilled after a while 20 what the problem is. We're not going to the core of 21 the problem. The symptom is what we see. This 22 industry is stagnant. These people are losing money. 23 They are -- they don't need regulation. Just let them 24 sit here for a while and they are going to collapse 25 inward totally. The industry is decaying. Look at WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 69 1 it. In every report, the last one we got, the last 2 advisory committee meeting, they are down an 3 additional 5 percent. I've watched us go from eight 4 to 900 million to five or six. When are people going 5 to wake up? I've run businesses for 30 years. You've 6 got to understand that when things like that happen, 7 you have to turn them around. You can't continue 8 talking about them. And we're not effective. We've 9 got to do something that's effective. 10 CHAIR NEINAST: Your last comments were 11 completely off of the subject we were discussing, and 12 that is the authority and the ability of this 13 committee as opposed to the authority and ability of 14 the Lottery Commission. As long as the law is written 15 as it is, what was done in that particular case was 16 perfectly proper and legal. There is nothing we can 17 do to change that. The division has absolute 18 authority to go to directly to the commission if they 19 disagree with that, and that's what they did. So 20 you're unhappy with it and -- 21 MR. TAWIL: No, I'm just -- 22 CHAIR NEINAST: Let me finish. You are 23 unhappy with some of the decisions we've made, but the 24 decisions are made and they were made properly and 25 legally, so let's don't go back and rehash those. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 70 1 MR. TAWIL: Yes, sir. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: We're going to deal with 3 that in the next item as to whether this agency should 4 be a separate agency. That's where the comments you 5 have are appropriate. But right now, we have to 6 remember that we are nothing but a -- we are a filter, 7 in effect, for the Lottery Commission, and what they 8 do with the information we give them is strictly up to 9 those three. They can decide to follow our 10 recommendation, as they have in most cases, and they 11 can decide not to follow it in others, and that's just 12 the way it is and we can't change that, and discussing 13 it here any further would serve no additional purpose 14 at this time. 15 Do you have any comments on this item, 16 Number 5? 17 MR. SPEED: I have none. 18 CHAIR NEINAST: Virginia? 19 MS. BRACKETT: No. 20 MS. TAYLOR: I think that one of the 21 suggestions that Scott made is viable to help in the 22 industry and it is whatever we decide at the meetings, 23 if we make a motion, we approve something, we've come 24 to an agreement and that's something that you are 25 going to be talking to the commissioners and you are WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 71 1 taking a report, if we could post on the Web site what 2 actions the BAC has taken, instead of, you know, 200 3 pages of minutes. If the actions, the actual action 4 items, if we could post that so that the people out 5 there could know in a quicker time frame what actually 6 actions were taken and then they would know, like 7 Scott would ask, what's going to be discussed at the 8 commissioner's meeting, and then maybe the general 9 public can come to the commissioner's meeting and say 10 we support the BAC, this isn't just nine people 11 sitting up here making decisions, we're supporting the 12 decision they've made on this or we don't support the 13 decision they have made on this, but they would know 14 which items were going to be addressed to the 15 commissioners at those meetings. So I don't know -- 16 it doesn't seem like it would be very hard. Just post 17 the actions. 18 MR. ATKINS: Instead of the transcript? 19 MS. TAYLOR: Well, the transcript is great, 20 but have any of you read the transcript? One person. 21 It's hundreds of pages long every meeting. You're 22 doing a great job. It's a lot of reading, I mean it's 23 a lot of reading. I stayed up and read one until 3:00 24 in the morning. 25 MR. ATKINS: In addition to? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 72 1 MS. TAYLOR: Yeah. 2 MR. ATKINS: Okay. That's all I need. 3 MS. TAYLOR: Instead of waiting for the 4 transcript, and I don't know if one of those -- I'll 5 be glad to volunteer to do that, to get the motion 6 down and get the vote down so we know what the BAC had 7 agreed and just have those posted individually. The 8 discussion is great in the transcript, but it would be 9 nice to be able to get to the meat of it without 10 having to read through two or 300 pages. Reading on 11 the Net isn't my thing to do. It's hard to read that, 12 but none of us want to print it out because it's too 13 long to print the damn thing. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: I prepare for the 15 commission what I call an executive summary, and I 16 generally try to keep it to one page and that's 17 condensing it a lot. And that goes to them and is put 18 in their book before they come and then I use that as 19 my discussion, and I see no reason why as soon as I 20 get that in that that cannot be posted. 21 MS. TAYLOR: Perfect. 22 CHAIR NEINAST: You may disagree with the 23 way I report something, because I try to boil down, 24 like you say, 350 pages down to one page or sometimes 25 I think I've gone as long as two pages on a couple, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (512) 474-4363 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE - March 20, 2002 73 1 but it gives the commission an idea of what I'm going 2 to be talking about. And sometimes it's no more than 3 what I've already told them in writing, but so