1 1 2 3 4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 5 6 BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE 7 MEETING 8 9 JULY 25, 2001 10 11 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 BE IT REMEMBERED that the BINGO ADVISORY 20 COMMITTEE meeting was held on the 25TH of JULY, 2001, 21 from 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., before Brenda J. Wright, 22 RPR, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by 23 machine shorthand, at the Offices of the Texas Lottery 24 Commission, West Sixth Street, Austin, Texas, 25 whereupon the following proceedings were had: WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 Chairman: Mr. William Neinast - Burton, Texas 4 5 Vice-Chairman: Ms. Virginia Bracket - Lubbock, Texas 6 7 Committee Members: Ms. Suzanne Taylor - Corpus Christi, Texas 8 Mr. Lexford Speed - Plano, Texas Mr. Saleem Tawil - Austin, Texas 9 Mr. Fabian Hoffner - St. Paul, Minnesota Mr. David Castillo - Kingsville, Texas 10 Mr. Robert Rinehart - Amarillo, Texas Mr. Louie George - Wake Village, Texas 11 12 Charitable Bingo Operations Director: Mr. Billy Atkins 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 3 1 INDEX 2 3 Appearances...................................... 2 4 AGENDA ITEMS 5 Item Number 1.................................... 4 6 Item Number 2.................................... 6 Item Number 3.................................... 7 7 Item Number 4.................................... 8 Item Number 5.................................... 12 8 Item Number 6.................................... 21 Item Number 7.................................... 48 9 Item Number 8.................................... 59 Item Number 9.................................... 82 10 Item Number 10................................... 99 Item Number 11................................... 100 11 Item Number 12................................... 101 Item Number 13................................... 105 12 Item Number 14................................... 126 Item Number 15................................... 146 13 Item Number 16................................... 156 Item Number 17................................... 156 14 15 Reporter's Certificate........................... 181 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 4 1 July 25, 2001 2 Bingo Advisory Committee Meeting 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Good morning. I would 4 like to call the Bingo Advisory Committee meeting to 5 order. It's 10:00 a.m., Wednesday, July 25th. A 6 couple of administrative announcements before we get 7 formally underway. As you may have noticed, we are 8 now being recorded verbatim by Ms. Wright, so I will 9 ask each of you, when you are speaking, that we don't 10 try to speak over someone else. She has to take 11 everything down and we have not been doing that in the 12 past, although I think this committee has been pretty 13 good on talking in order. But remember that we are 14 being recorded. And as Virginia said, that all of our 15 bad grammar is going to be recorded for posterity. 16 But if we do get into one of these situations where 17 more than one individual is trying to talk, I will ask 18 that one refrain so that Ms. Wright can get everything 19 down. 20 You may have noticed, or is there 21 anyone on the committee other than Saleem and me that 22 drives in? I would like -- do you drive in? 23 You may have noticed, and Billy sent 24 out the e-mail, that there is a real parking problem 25 that is going to get worse, because the parking lot WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 5 1 over on -- behind the building that is being used now 2 by the Lottery Commission will be lost as of the 1st 3 of August, so parking is going to be even more of a 4 premium, or a problem. And I have talked with Mike 5 about it this morning. We can possibly get some 6 information out to you, but for those of us who drive, 7 starting the first of August, it's going to be even a 8 worse problem than it is now. And David, I can talk 9 with you later about it and with Saleem, I think -- 10 there comes Saleem. There might be a temporary 11 solution or a solution that we can work out. But it's 12 going to be a problem in the future, more than -- 13 Saleem, did you drive in this morning? 14 MR. TAWIL: Yeah. 15 CHAIR NEINAST: Did you finally find a 16 parking place? 17 MR. TAWIL: Yeah, finally across over 18 that way. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. Well, I just 20 mentioned that parking lot is going to be lost as of 1 21 August, it will not be available anymore. So we -- 22 let's the three of us get together with Billy and/or 23 Mike after the meeting to talk about where we can 24 park, what we can do in the future. Everyone else 25 comes in by cab, so there won't be a problem, but WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 6 1 there will be a problem in the future. 2 I would like take up item number two on 3 the agenda, which is, consideration of and possible 4 action, including approval, of the minutes of the May 5 9, 2001, Bingo Advisory Committee meeting. 6 You have been provided a copy of the 7 minutes in your notebook. You've had -- that 8 constitutes a reading of the minutes. Are there any 9 amendments or changes to the minutes? 10 MS. BRACKETT: I have one question. I 11 can't find out what item it is. When you appointed 12 the study group, I thought that Bud Speed was included 13 in that. Is that correct? 14 MR. SPEED: I don't think so. 15 MS. BRACKETT: Oh. 16 CHAIR NEINAST: If you would identify 17 yourself for Ms. Wright again so that -- 18 MS. BRACKETT: Virginia Brackett. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: And your question 20 specifically was? 21 MS. BRACKETT: I'm sorry. I don't have 22 it marked here in the minutes, but it was that when 23 you appointed the subcommittee to look into the 24 question of extending the date of -- 25 CHAIR NEINAST: The quarterly report. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 7 1 MS. BRACKETT: -- reports, I was 2 thinking that Bud Speed was included on that. But he 3 has given us a disclaimer, so I think I was just 4 incorrect in that. 5 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. 6 MS. BRACKETT: So I have no 7 corrections. 8 CHAIR NEINAST: Anyone else have -- if 9 there are no amendments and corrections, then the 10 minutes stand approved as read. 11 We'll move to item three on the agenda, 12 which is a report, possible discussion and/or action 13 on the Bingo Advisory Committee Chair's report to the 14 Texas Lottery Commission relating to the issues 15 discussed at the May 9, 2001 Bingo Advisory Committee 16 meeting. 17 Again, you have in your notebooks a 18 verbatim account of that report. I was unable to make 19 that meeting, and Billy made the report for me. And I 20 think he did an excellent job, and if you read through 21 those minutes, I think we got some good reflections of 22 what the Lottery Commission expects from us and how we 23 might meet their needs or desires better in the 24 future. But Billy, do you have anything further to 25 add about that report? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 8 1 MR. ATKINS: No, sir. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: Are there any questions 3 or comments on the report to the Lottery Commission? 4 If there are no questions or comments, 5 I think that that item does not require a specific 6 action and was information only primarily, so we'll 7 move down to number four, which is a report, possible 8 discussion and/or action on the 77th Legislature's 9 activities relating to bingo. And that will be 10 provided by a much relaxed Nelda Trevino. Welcome, 11 Nelda. 12 MS. TREVINO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 13 For the record, I am Nelda Trevino. I'm the director 14 for the governmental affairs division. 15 In your packets, we provided to you a 16 tracking report that included all of the bills that 17 were filed during this last legislative session. And 18 as you'll note, there were a total of 14 bills that 19 were filed that pertained or had some sort of impact 20 on charitable bingo. A couple of bills that I just 21 want to take a very quick note on, and those were the 22 ones that were part of the agency's legislative 23 package, and I know that the advisory committee had 24 some discussion on, and you'll note that on each bill, 25 there is the bill history for each one of those bills, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 9 1 and so it'll tell you what the last action was on each 2 one of those. 3 House Bill 2119, by Representative 4 Haggerty, that would have authorized a progressive 5 bingo game. That was a bill that passed both the 6 House and the Senate, and was vetoed by the Governor. 7 And on the last page of what is in your packet on this 8 particular section is the proclamation by Governor 9 that states the reason for his veto on this particular 10 bill. 11 Also, House Bill 2578, by 12 Representative Haggerty, that would have allowed the 13 subpoena power for the Lottery Commission for the 14 regulation of bingo. That did pass the House and was 15 never considered by the Senate committee, but there 16 was some discussion, obviously, that took place over 17 in the House. 18 House Bill 3234 by Representative Art 19 Reyna, that was the bill that I typically refer to as 20 the omnibus cleanup bill. It included a couple of 21 more major provisions, and that would have -- the 22 provision that would have eliminated the five percent 23 prize fee on prizes less than five dollars, and also 24 eliminating the 40 percent requirement on card minding 25 devices. Again, that was part of the agency's WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 10 1 legislative package. 2 The other two bills, House Bill 3360 3 relating to pull tabs, and House Bill 3361 relating to 4 the authority to summarily suspend licenses, those 5 bills were filed and were never given a committee 6 hearing. So again, I just wanted to highlight those 7 specific bills since they were part of the agency's 8 legislative package and this committee had had some 9 discussion on them. That basically concludes my 10 report, and I'll be happy to answer any questions that 11 you might have. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: So the only bill that 13 was passed that related to bingo was vetoed by the 14 Governor. Is that correct? 15 MS. TREVINO: That's correct. 16 CHAIR NEINAST: I would like to comment 17 just generally on that. The reasons given for the 18 veto by Governor Perry concerned me a little bit, 19 because it kind of signals what could happen to any 20 future legislation on bingo, but I don't think that 21 should affect this committee. I think we need to look 22 forward to the next legislative session. We may 23 have -- or probably will have a new legislature and 24 may have a different governor, but in any event, I 25 think we need to forge ahead and recommend to the WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 11 1 Lottery Commission that legislation that we think is 2 needed to help the bingo industry without regard to 3 what might be reflected in the Governor's veto 4 message. And I think it's not too soon now to start 5 thinking about and working on proposed legislation 6 that we would like to see the Lottery Commission 7 propose, and taking a note from the minutes of the 8 Lottery Commission when I met with Billy on this, I 9 think possibly we could do a better job in our 10 proposals to the Lottery Commission in making our case 11 stronger. But also, it'll require each of us and 12 others in the bingo industry to get more active with 13 their legislators and their senators and, also, with 14 the governor to get the legislation we want. But 15 those are just my general observations. 16 Any other questions or comments from 17 the members of the committee on the -- on this 18 particular issue? 19 If none, we'll pass on to the other -- 20 thank you, Nelda. We appreciate all that you have 21 done through the year and the years in helping us. 22 Maybe we'll have better luck next time around. 23 MS. TREVINO: Well, we look forward 24 with working with the committee on future legislative 25 proposals. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 12 1 CHAIR NEINAST: Thank you. 2 I did not mention the visitors we have. 3 You are certainly appreciated and welcome, and you're 4 invited to come forward and comment on any of the 5 items that are on the agenda. This is an open meeting 6 and your comments will be welcomed. 7 Number five is the status report, 8 possible discussion and/or action on the security 9 division's activities. 10 Mike Pitcock, commander of the security 11 division will give us a report that you have in front 12 of you, his written report. Welcome, Mike. 13 MR. PITCOCK: Thank you, sir. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: Do you have anything to 15 add to the -- 16 MR. PITCOCK: For the record, Mike 17 Pitcock, commander of security division. I have 18 nothing to add to the report. It speaks for itself. 19 Again, that's the flow of the investigations through 20 our security division for the quarter that is on your 21 sheets. And there was a typographical. It was March 22 1st, 2001 through May 31st, 2001. I think she had 23 March 1st, 2000. It's not that long of a report. 24 It's just for a quarter. Again, we received 35 25 complaints. We closed 37. We had total actions that WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 13 1 were referred to legal or D.A. is ten, and then you 2 see the breakdown of the referrals based on the 3 regions. We issued four warnings during that period. 4 And then down at the bottom, you will see at the top, 5 complaints received and the numbers beside it as to 6 what they are. 7 This quarter has been interesting. We 8 had a case resolved in the Houston area that resulted 9 in a conviction, criminal conviction on an individual 10 in the operation of bingo illegally, and then also we 11 seized, as the result of that, almost a complete set 12 of bingo equipment that was in that hall at that time, 13 and that was awarded to the State. So we're in the 14 process of distributing that equipment back here to 15 Austin at this time. It's one of those cases that we 16 worked undercover and discovered that they were 17 playing illegally without a license, and arrest 18 warrants were issued and we did arrest an individual 19 and he was convicted, and the courts did order us to 20 receive equipment and the monies that were a result of 21 illegal bingo. It was a long investigation, which, 22 you know, it's one of those that -- we're kind of 23 getting used to that. Bingo cases are tough cases and 24 they take a lot of man hours and a lot of 25 investigative work. Usually, the results, if you do WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 14 1 your work correctly, it works out. 2 I'll answer any questions if you have 3 any questions. 4 MS. TAYLOR: I do. Suzanne Taylor. I 5 was wondering, you said that you were going to be 6 distributing that here in Austin. Are you selling 7 that to -- 8 MR. PITCOCK: No. 9 MS. TAYLOR: Where are you going to be 10 distributing that to? 11 MR. PITCOCK: It's going to go to the 12 bingo section. We'll give it to Billy and Billy 13 will -- you know, if he needs any of the equipment -- 14 and I think what he plans to do is set up a training 15 facility for training, you know, people on bingo, so 16 it's going to be used for training. The rest of it, 17 if it's not used, will be destroyed. 18 MR. ATKINS: Are you in the market for 19 bingo equipment? 20 MS. TAYLOR: No. But what I'm thinking 21 is, is that there are a lot of nonprofits in the 22 market for bingo equipment. It seems like a complete 23 waste of funds to destroy perfectly good bingo 24 equipment when you could sell that and use that money 25 for advertising bingo. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 15 1 MR. ATKINS: Well, that's nice in 2 theory, Suzanne. First of all, a lot of the equipment 3 was apparently damaged in the flood, so we don't even 4 know the quality of it. And I doubt that several 5 hundred dollars that we would get for it would do much 6 of an advertising campaign. 7 MR. PITCOCK: Or the cost that it would 8 cost to get that hundred dollars. I understand the 9 equipment is not new equipment. It's not that good of 10 stuff. It's just equipment that's, you know, standard 11 equipment. It's nothing special or fancy or anything 12 else. 13 CHAIR NEINAST: I kind of agree with 14 Suzanne. If there is any usable equipment and you 15 cannot use it in your training program, you may 16 consider advertising it and letting the charities know 17 that it's available and put it out for bid, and then 18 use the money for whatever purpose rather than 19 destroying it if it's usable. Well, Mike, it looks 20 like you're gaining. You closed two more than you 21 received, so that's -- keep up the good work. 22 MR. PITCOCK: I think, if you look at 23 the last probably several reports, based on our 24 quarterly, you will see the same scenario. And I will 25 report again that through the cooperative work with WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 16 1 the auditors and investigators, you know, our 2 complaints have gone way down, and I think it's 3 because of going out and actually working inside the 4 bingo halls and talking to people and trying to answer 5 their complaints. And plus, I have to compliment the 6 bingo licensees for voluntarily complying with the 7 law, because without their cooperation, you know, we 8 wouldn't have those kind of stats. So I think people 9 are understanding the rules and regulations better 10 based on training that Billy is offering, and I think 11 that goes a long ways to the overall mission of what 12 we're trying to do. We have to have good enforcement, 13 we have to have people out there, you know, trying to 14 keep people in check and balance, because it is an 15 industry that seems to sometimes flow in directions 16 that may not be right. But it's -- the overall end 17 result has been good. I think we're still seeing 18 steady decline in the violations, which I think is 19 good. But the industry is again dictated by the 20 product and the people -- you have people playing 21 bingo, and it's one of those that that market is -- 22 it's an interesting study. So I think that the 23 investigators and the audit section and the bingo 24 section have done a good job over a long period of 25 time since we've started this. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 17 1 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, I would probably 2 be hard to measure, but I would think that the 3 training program should have a positive effect on it. 4 And you've kind of alluded to it, and it might be a 5 little early to see the full -- 6 MR. PITCOCK: I have seen the training 7 program, and I think it has a big effect on it. 8 Because I think that the people, you know, they're 9 starving for information to what they're supposed to 10 do or not supposed to do, and they get a chance to ask 11 those questions, and I think Billy offers that. And I 12 think that's great, because for us in enforcement, you 13 know, it makes it easier when you go in there and tell 14 them that you violated a rule or a law and they know 15 what that rule or law is or they can look it up, or 16 you can talk to somebody that at least has a working 17 knowledge of what we're talking about. Because we 18 have found when we first started that very few of the 19 people that we talked with from the charities had 20 knowledge of what the rules and laws are. And I think 21 this program has gone big jumps towards educating 22 those people as to what they're supposed to do or what 23 they're not supposed to do. And I compliment his 24 section for doing that. Our investigators, they asked 25 me the other day in a meeting we had about training, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 18 1 you know, when a cop comes in and tells you, you know, 2 you're speeding, to slow down, that has an effect, but 3 you know, it's one of those, I think that to prevent 4 stuff, you have to have the training -- you have to 5 have people out there telling people the causative 6 effect of what you do is wrong and then how it affects 7 the overall industry. Billy has gone a long ways of 8 doing that. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: And if my memory serves 10 me correct, the top complaints received, it seems to 11 be the same types of complaints every time that make 12 the list and almost in that identical order. And -- 13 MR. PITCOCK: That's true. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: -- and taking up on 15 something you just said -- and Billy, I think we may 16 have discussed this earlier. Would any purpose be 17 served of just reflecting this in the bingo bulletins, 18 kind of like what Mike said, that the operators see 19 that this type of complaint or these complaints are 20 being received and if it might alert them to a 21 problem. I don't know what your men find when they go 22 out to investigate these, if they're just an unhappy 23 player who is reporting or whether there is a real 24 problem reflected in this failure to pay prize to 25 winners seems to crop up every time at number one or WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 19 1 two. 2 MR. PITCOCK: You have disgruntled 3 players that they feel they bingo, or they're slow in 4 some of the rules, you know, that the people enforce, 5 they conflict. And we kind of go in to try to 6 arbitrate that and look and see if it's been played 7 fairly and the prizes are awarded. And you know, a 8 lot of times it's the player's fault -- and more 9 times, I think the percentage is the player's fault 10 because the bingo halls usually set up rules and they 11 call their games the way they see it. But sometimes 12 the halls are a little bit less compassionate than 13 they need to be towards the player and understanding 14 their issues. And so that leaves them with nowhere to 15 turn, and so they turn to us and say, you know, they 16 wouldn't even talk to me or wouldn't listen to my 17 complaint. A lot of times what we do is try just to 18 get them to listen to the people and hear their 19 complaint, and explain to them what the rules of the 20 hall is or the house, and that, you know, the games 21 are played like this and you have to bingo by this 22 time and, you know, what your rules are. And the 23 players usually -- you know, they see that and they 24 see that it's really -- that you've got to play within 25 those rules, they understand. But you've got to be WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 20 1 compassionate to their issue. You've got to talk to 2 them. And sometimes, you know, the same players may 3 be the same complaining ones a lot, and we try to 4 listen to them and try to give what we know to be -- 5 listen, now, there is times when we get complaints 6 that if there is something going on, we get a lot of 7 complaints where they have people that come in real 8 frequent and bingo a lot based on the electronics. 9 What we do, we try to watch to see if there is any 10 collusion or any illegal activity to see if those 11 players do have the advantage or that it's unfair or 12 illegal. And we will take, you know, proper action, 13 either criminal or administrative, if we see that. 14 We do work undercover. I don't know if 15 I've told all of you that. We work undercover. If we 16 get complaints on the halls, it doesn't necessarily 17 mean that we're going to walk in and talk to the 18 people doing it. We may be sitting out there in the 19 audience playing bingo, or an auditor playing and 20 watching. And that's common with us. That's the way 21 we see actually how the people are treated and what is 22 going on and, plus, if there is violations that we 23 need to take action on. Not an uncommon thing for us 24 to do. If we do see violations of the law or rules, 25 then we take the appropriate -- or refer it to Billy WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 21 1 for the appropriate action to be taken. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: Billy, do you think 3 anybody would be served in reporting this in the bingo 4 bulletin or to alert the operators? 5 MR. ATKINS: I thought we had in the 6 past, Mr. Chairman, and I would have to go back and 7 check. I mean, we can. It's -- you know, it's like 8 Mike says, these numbers have dropped significantly 9 and, you know, we may be at the point where these are 10 as low as they're going to go. But we can certainly 11 publish them in the bulletin. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: I don't think it would 13 hurt. It may alert some of the operators that there 14 could be a problem. 15 MR. ATKINS: Uh-huh. 16 CHAIR NEINAST: Any questions from the 17 members of the committee for Mr. Pitcock? If none, 18 thank you, Mike. 19 MR. PITCOCK: Thank you. 20 CHAIR NEINAST: The next three items, I 21 think there could be a lot of overlap. And we'll 22 still take them in order, but recognizing that there 23 could be overlap. We'll start with number six, which 24 is a consideration of and possible discussion and/or 25 action of a self-evaluation of the Bingo Advisory WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 22 1 Committee, including work provided to the Texas 2 Lottery Commission. 3 If you will recall from the report in 4 your notebook of Billy's report to the Lottery 5 Commission, it was discussed to a certain extent 6 there, and I think maybe this should be an ongoing and 7 a continuing item on our agenda, but are we doing the 8 job we're set out to do. The requirements or the 9 discussion in the rules, which are reproduced for you 10 in your notebook, are somewhat nebulous. My concern 11 is, are we getting from our -- for lack of a better 12 term, our constituents, the people we represent, a 13 full report. 14 MR. TAWIL: No. 15 CHAIR NEINAST: Saleem says no. 16 MR. TAWIL: There are several of them 17 off here -- there were several lawyers in this room on 18 several occasions, and I've gotten complaints on the 19 telephone from these people because they're not 20 willing to step forward and complain that this 21 advisory committee is being run by the Lottery 22 Commission and not by the independent part of the 23 advisory group. That the whole process is controlled 24 by the Bingo Division, and they're upset about it and 25 not coming to any more meetings. I don't know why WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 23 1 they won't come up here and complain and tell you 2 that, though. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Did they give you some 4 specifics other than -- 5 MR. TAWIL: Yeah. They said the Bingo 6 Division runs this process. This whole process is 7 controlled by the Bingo Division. It's not 8 independent -- it can't be independent the way it's 9 being run, they're frustrated, they give up. One of 10 them stood right here and had a big confrontation with 11 Billy. They're just -- they're tired of it because 12 nobody listens. This thing is nothing more than a 13 mimicking of the process of the Bingo Division. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: What is the feeling of 15 the other members of the committee on that 16 particular -- 17 MR. HOFFNER: Mr. Chairman, Fabian 18 Hoffner, executive director of NAFTM, and I disagree 19 with my colleague, Saleem -- 20 CHAIR NEINAST: Pardon me, Fabian. 21 You're coming through awful -- is your -- 22 MR. HOFFNER: I said I disagree in 23 that -- in that I have never been told what to say, 24 what to do. 25 MR. TAWIL: That's not what I said. I WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 24 1 said their complaint -- by the way, I've been in this 2 now three years. Okay? You've only been on this 3 committee once. Now, these people complain -- these 4 are professionals who represent either halls or 5 distributors or manufacturers. You're not the only 6 representative. You represent pull tabs. Okay? They 7 complained -- they called and told me that this 8 process is not working, they've tried, they're 9 frustrated with it. More than one. That doesn't 10 mean, because they didn't call you, it didn't happen. 11 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, I as -- you would 12 think that complaints like that would be directed to 13 the chairman, and I have not received any such 14 comments or -- 15 MR. TAWIL: You don't remember Steve 16 Bresnen standing here and complaining? 17 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, I remember him 18 being here several times making a presentation. 19 MR. TAWIL: He hasn't been here since 20 the last time he complained. 21 CHAIR NEINAST: The fact that the 22 committee does not agree with him or adopt his 23 proposal does not mean that it's being run by the 24 Bingo Division. It means that the majority of the 25 committee does not agree with him for whatever reason. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 25 1 MR. TAWIL: I just -- you want 2 feedback, I'm giving you feedback. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, that's what we're 4 here for. But I'm observing -- 5 MS. TAYLOR: I have had the same things 6 happen to me that Saleem is talking about. I can tell 7 you, I have received the same phone calls. And I ask 8 people, are you going to go to the meeting and their 9 response is, no, because the Bingo Advisory Committee 10 really doesn't accomplish anything. We go to the 11 meetings and, you know, we tell you things that we 12 feel that are important to us, and nothing really 13 happens on it. So it's truly a waste of time that 14 they feel they're -- instead of coming to us, they're 15 going to other ways to try and see things happen that 16 they want to have happen. And I mean, I understand 17 what he is saying, and I don't think that they say 18 that any of us are being run or any of us are being 19 told what to say or do here at the meeting. I think 20 they're frustrated that change is so slow in 21 occurring. That they would like to be able to come to 22 a meeting and see some movement on different things 23 that they're interested in, and they don't. 24 MR. TAWIL: Because I've told them, I'm 25 open. I said, any issue that I have, I bring up, you WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 26 1 respond to, Billy responds to. I haven't had 2 personally any problems. I said, y'all tell me 3 whatever you want. I'll be glad to bring it up. 4 They -- 5 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, I certainly hope 6 that's the situation, that we have not cut off any 7 discussion or refused to put on the agenda any item 8 they want. Suzanne, you've been on the committee 9 longer than -- you're the old woman of the committee 10 by way of service. Have you -- do you recognize that, 11 as an individual, as a problem? 12 MS. TAYLOR: I do think that -- I think 13 that wish we could be more effective as a group. I 14 wish that we were a more effective group, and some of 15 the suggestions that were made at the last meeting, 16 maybe are some of the things that could make us a more 17 effective group. Putting reports together, putting 18 statistics together, so that when we make 19 recommendations, we have some meat in our 20 recommendation, and they will receive, I think, more 21 consideration from the Lottery Commission, from the 22 Commissioners, because we do take a lot of different 23 things to them, but not much actually happens. I 24 mean, everything that we've talked about in the last 25 year, the only thing that really went anywhere was WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 27 1 progressive bingo, and nothing happened with that. So 2 anybody coming to the meetings, I mean you see, there 3 is nobody here. They know when the meeting is. It's 4 been published. I mean, you make sure that everybody 5 knows when this meeting was supposed to be and yet 6 there is nobody here. And I think it is just general 7 frustration that nothing happens. I mean, we meet and 8 we have meetings and we talk and nothing happens. And 9 I think that perhaps Tom was right. We need to put 10 more meat into things that we want to see happen and 11 maybe some change will happen for some of these items. 12 I personally am frustrated with some of the things. 13 You know, I would like to see a new rule on pull tabs. 14 You know, that's been ongoing now, that was six or 15 nine months ago that, you know, we talked about that. 16 We still don't have an additional definition for pull 17 tabs. So I mean, I am frustrated, so I imagine that, 18 you know, they are frustrated, too. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, on that last one, 20 I will plead guilty. That's my fault because it just 21 slipped through my memory, and I have -- I have asked 22 Fabian to address that today. But -- and I certainly 23 think that we need to get more backup for our 24 proposals, but I hope that these people who are 25 unhappy with what we do will recognize, and if they're WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 28 1 the attorneys who are unhappy, they should recognize 2 that most of it, not all of it, will require a 3 legislative or a rule change and you just don't do 4 either one of those overnight. Look at what happened 5 to our proposals. A lot of those items that Nelda 6 talked about were -- originated from this committee, 7 that got to the legislature, and -- 8 MR. TAWIL: Several -- we weren't all 9 together. Several of us worked against different 10 bills, tried to kill them. Nobody is in unison. 11 CHAIR NEINAST: But would it -- I don't 12 think that the committee can be blamed for that. But 13 there is just a slowness in the process we need to 14 look and see if we can speed it up, but there are some 15 things that just cannot be moved any faster than they 16 are moving. But my concern is, and this is reflected 17 in one of the others that we will take up again, is 18 that we don't give a lot of the individual -- 19 individuals and individual organizations involved in 20 bingo an opportunity to come to this committee because 21 we do meet in Austin. And we'll discuss that later. 22 But it's unlike the Lottery Commission, that the 23 people who are interested in that are the people who 24 have a financial interest in it, and "financial" being 25 that it goes into their pocket. Whereas the WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 29 1 charities, the operators in bingo, they're doing it as 2 a service to the community, and they've had to take 3 time off to -- of their work to further the -- 4 MR. TAWIL: Well, that's not exactly 5 right. But several distributors wanted to go for that 6 seat right over there. They're in-state companies 7 that operate here in Texas and have financial 8 interest. They were all rejected and a manufacturers 9 rep from out of state was put in that seat. There is 10 a lot of people complaining about that still. 11 CHAIR NEINAST: I look at the bingo 12 industry as being composed and organized and existing 13 more for the charities that are running the games than 14 for the distributors or -- 15 MR. TAWIL: I don't disagree with you 16 there. But I mean, the people in state ought to be 17 considered first, just like they do in other state 18 agencies. I got several complaints on that call -- 19 called on that. Why would they pick somebody from out 20 of state to represent the distributors, than let 21 them -- several of them tried. And I said, I don't 22 know. I can voice whatever opinions y'all want to 23 bring it up, but I -- you know, so that's not true 24 when you said financial interest. Some people -- 25 they're small. They're small businesses, so they're WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 30 1 ignored. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: I frankly have the same 3 question with that. And Billy, if you recall, I 4 called on that and was told that this -- Fabian's 5 organization or group was the only organization that 6 fit the requirement for that seat? 7 MR. ATKINS: No, I don't recall you 8 being told that. I recall that that seat that Fabian 9 holds represents not just distributors, but another 10 class of representatives that we have, called 11 manufacturers. And since the committee's inception, 12 that seat had been held by distributors. There had 13 never been a manufacturer's representative on the 14 seat. And it was his association that for whatever, 15 you know, reason decided to put him forward as a 16 candidate instead -- in the past, I think certain 17 manufacturers had submitted individuals, but I don't 18 believe this time they did. They submitted one. 19 MR. TAWIL: Those are all the things 20 that are making -- you know, that's why there is 21 hardly anybody here or people that takes part in the 22 process. There is just a lot of acrimony. As Billy 23 knows, I'm open. I just -- if I have a problem, I 24 just bring it up and speak it out. I wish most of 25 them would have done that. This could have been WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 31 1 resolved two or three years ago, the issues of how 2 they interrelate to the advisory committee. They 3 just -- go ahead, Billy. 4 MR. ATKINS: I'll let you know this. 5 I'm pretty troubled by the fact, Saleem, that you've 6 never raised these issues with me. I mean, you're 7 right. In the past, you've never been shy about 8 calling and voicing whatever concern -- 9 MR. TAWIL: No. And I didn't want to 10 bring -- 11 MR. ATKINS: -- but to come -- I'm 12 sorry. But to come here out of the blue and then all 13 of a sudden accuse the Bingo Division of running this 14 committee, et cetera, et cetera -- 15 MR. TAWIL: No, no. I'm not making -- 16 MR. ATKINS: -- I find very 17 disheartening. 18 MR. TAWIL: Okay. These are not -- 19 these are comments of people calling and telling me. 20 People telling me after the meeting. I didn't get 21 this blue document. Okay? They usually come the last 22 day. I would have mine here today and I would have 23 been aware that this issue was going to be on. I have 24 no other way of knowing. When he brings it up, it 25 triggered the fact that I've gotten five or six WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 32 1 complaints within the last year, and I just felt like 2 I needed to let them be known. And in particular, on 3 that seat over there, there was several complaints, 4 but I felt like this really is an issue that Bill and 5 you are overlooking overall as to whoever recommends 6 to the Commissioners on the seat assignments. And 7 then when the blowup occurred here with -- I forgot 8 his name. 9 MR. ATKINS: Bresnen. 10 MR. TAWIL: Steve. I got a call that 11 evening. 12 MR. ATKINS: From Steve? 13 MR. TAWIL: No. From one of the other 14 guys, from the other people, saying, this process just 15 is not working for us. It doesn't do anything. It -- 16 we have no avenue. This advisory committee was 17 created for a specific purpose. It's supposed to be 18 independent of the Lottery division -- or the Bingo 19 Division as a body, and they don't see it that way. 20 So I -- I don't know what to tell you. I'm just -- 21 you want feedback, I'm giving you what I get. And as 22 far as I'm concerned, it seems like this chair is open 23 for anybody, any time. There is always public notices 24 and everything, but they don't feel like anything 25 happens as the system takes the information in. And WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 33 1 it just don't go anywhere. 2 MS. TAYLOR: And if we went back to -- 3 back to the same thing that Tom Clowe was talking 4 about and put together reports that had -- where we 5 would go out and ask people, you know, where we do 6 surveys and where we do more work on the item than 7 just talk about it for ten minutes here and make a 8 decision and say, yeah, this is what we think. 9 Because we don't have anything to back up what we 10 think. I mean, this is, you know, just a very few of 11 us. If we had more information, if we went back out 12 into the local communities and had more, more in these 13 reports, and said, well, this is how many people I've 14 asked and this is how many -- which people said this, 15 and which people said this, and this is how they feel. 16 So that instead of just our opinion, nine measly 17 little people, it's the opinion of the whole group of 18 bingo. I mean, we don't. We come here and we talk 19 about it for ten minutes, and because we don't have 20 anything to back up our feelings, I think a lot of 21 things -- the good ideas are just let drop because 22 they don't go anywhere. But, I mean, some of it is 23 our fault because we need to put more into the 24 suggestions and the items that we have on the agenda. 25 I mean -- and I'm personally responsible, too. I WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 34 1 mean, I think debit cards would be used, but I was 2 hoping somebody else would come forward and bring that 3 information and I didn't do any more research on it. 4 I mean, it's each and every one of us. 5 MR. ATKINS: Well, and I appreciate you 6 raising that point, Suzanne. You know, the staff, for 7 the last meeting, put considerable amount of effort 8 into gathering that information. So there is going to 9 be a frustration on our part if there is nothing 10 further discussed about it at this time. Now, another 11 point you just raised is -- I mean, it seems to 12 conflict directly with what you're talking about. You 13 know, you're saying we come here for ten minutes and 14 make a decision, you know, and then it goes to the 15 commission and the commission wants hard data. Well, 16 now you're talking about coming here, talking about 17 something, going away, and for a period of time, you 18 know, analyzing it, et cetera, so you're still talking 19 about that drawn-out process that the people are 20 coming to you and saying they're frustrated with. So 21 is that the Bingo Division's fault? I don't think so. 22 MS. TAYLOR: Well, maybe what we need 23 to do is the items that are on the agenda, before it 24 comes right back to the agenda, it's going to be on 25 the agenda, those two months or three months in WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 35 1 between times, we need to have everything together 2 when we come back to the meeting. We more or less 3 need to know what direction we are looking to go 4 forward in before we come back to the next meeting and 5 discuss it again and go away again. It's just 6 things -- I think we do need to work on these agendas 7 and have a pretty complete agenda and what we need to 8 bring to these next meetings, and then maybe we could 9 get people interested in coming again. 10 CHAIR NEINAST: I want to comment on 11 that, and Suzanne and Virginia and I discussed it a 12 little bit before the meeting started, another thing, 13 and that is that our agenda and notebook are put 14 together too late to give us sufficient time to review 15 it ahead of time. And we'll discuss this a little bit 16 later, but I think -- I see no reason why we cannot 17 set the agenda at least a month ahead of the -- of the 18 meeting. It may -- even though it -- and that may 19 conflict with the requirements for publishing in the 20 Register, I still think we can, for our internal use, 21 can develop an agenda and get the agenda and this 22 notebook out to the members at least two weeks in 23 advance. I got my copy Monday and Virginia got hers 24 Monday. I know, Saleem, you never got yours. 25 MR. TAWIL: I know. And I usually get WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 36 1 them the day before, also. 2 MR. RINEHART: I didn't get mine 3 either. 4 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. So that does not 5 give us sufficient time to review the material ahead 6 of time. That may help some. 7 MR. TAWIL: Billy, can we put it on the 8 web? 9 MR. ATKINS: The notebook? 10 MR. TAWIL: Yeah. I mean, as well? Is 11 that an option? 12 MR. ATKINS: I don't know. I will have 13 to check. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: There may be some that 15 wouldn't have access to the web. David, it looks like 16 you have a -- 17 MR. CASTILLO: Yes. I received mine 18 through Airborne, and I received it Monday. Usually I 19 get it about two or three days before the meeting. 20 And my observation -- David Castillo. My observation 21 is that bingo is faltering. I mean, and the people, 22 the organizations know about it, and I can't show if 23 we have -- the mutualistas and the polistas, they gave 24 up their license, and they're trying to have sales and 25 rental of the hall and they're faltering. And KC 3389 WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 37 1 also have been dormant with their license. And there 2 was a bingo hall that opened in -- it went through 3 real well for about six months, and then afterwards 4 they went down on their prices. They were faltering. 5 They were not giving the monies that they had. They 6 had complaints. So the people operating down in south 7 Texas know that bingo, we have a lot of debt. People 8 that used to go to bingo all the time are not 9 attending, so it's really a problem of the bingo all 10 over the state, sales are going down. How -- they're 11 looking for ways to manage through -- advertise bingo 12 and get it up again to what it was when it started. 13 That's one of the things that I have seen. And I 14 think that this committee recommended a whole bunch of 15 things for the legislature, and that's a process. And 16 we need to start working for the next session and 17 start getting our eggs together and see what happens. 18 But if it goes to a committee and it just bottles and 19 never gets a hearing, it's not the bingo committee's 20 fault or the Commissioners, it's just there. And the 21 only one thing that we got and it was vetoed, I think 22 we did pretty good. Zero out of zero. 23 MR. ATKINS: A hundred percent. 24 CHAIR NEINAST: I would like to comment 25 on one thing, make it a matter of record, as to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 38 1 whether the division runs this committee. And I'll 2 tell you that -- for the record, that Billy and I have 3 a lot of discussions by phone and by e-mail as to what 4 the agenda will be. He does not set it. He comes in 5 with suggestions, I have suggestions, and we mutually 6 agree on what the agenda will be. And as you know, we 7 include now, routinely, the last item will be a 8 consideration of agenda items for the next meeting. 9 So I think the observation that it is run by the -- 10 the division, is just not correct. Billy is here and 11 he has his say on everything we do, but he does not 12 set the agenda. I set the agenda in consult -- in 13 consultation with Billy. 14 The other part of that that bothers me 15 a little bit personally, and that would indicate that 16 maybe there is a belief on the part of the public that 17 I am running this too dictatorially or not giving 18 leeway. And I'm open to your comments. If that's the 19 case, I'm not letting the committee run the business, 20 I want to know about it. If there is something that I 21 can do to -- 22 MR. TAWIL: We heard that. There is 23 too much influence from the Bingo Division. And I 24 think you've been wide open. My recollections on some 25 of the things you did last year, we worked with you WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 39 1 and others in Billy's office on the lessor problems. 2 Remember that? You were quite thorough, quite open to 3 (inaudible). If all things happened like that, these 4 people, I guess, would have -- I don't know. I'm 5 just -- there is frustration in general on people's 6 part. They don't see this committee having any great 7 value. The biggest distress that I heard comments 8 about was the fact that we work together with the 9 division, and if the division didn't like what we were 10 doing, the division said, well, we'll just go to the 11 Commissioners on our own. I don't know what the issue 12 was. There was some issue two or three meetings back. 13 But, I mean, that kind of opened things up again. 14 And, of course, my reactions have always been, you 15 know, I can -- I don't see anything wrong with -- if 16 anyone is wanting to do something and takes the 17 initiative, they can either talk to you or Billy. 18 Those avenues have always been unobstructed. 19 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, there was a 20 specific issue like that. I have forgotten what it 21 was. But I remember specifically when I took it to 22 the commission, I said, this is what the committee 23 thinks and we are in disagreement with the division on 24 this. And I do not recall what the issue was, and I 25 do not recall what the commission did with it, but WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 40 1 there was at least one specific item that went before 2 the commission, and I presented it to them as being an 3 area in which we were in disagreement. And if you 4 recall, we were in disagreement on the -- 5 MR. ATKINS: May the comment, 6 Mr. Chairman? The issue I remember dealt with the 7 Bingo Division charging for the operator training 8 program. And the Bingo Division went forward to the 9 commission saying that we would like to be able to 10 charge a fee, and you reported on behalf of the Bingo 11 Advisory Committee that the BAC did not believe that 12 there was a need for a fee. And the Lottery 13 Commission sided with the advisory committee. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: At least to the extent 15 that -- that's it. That they deferred it, in effect, 16 for a year to see how it worked, as I recall, the 17 actual actions on it. And then, again, looking at our 18 past history, just recently, there was disagreement on 19 the -- between the committee and the division on the 20 subpoena and summary suspension power. And if you 21 recall, we sided with the -- those from the general 22 public who were against the summary suspension power, 23 and we sided with them. So, again, I'm not -- I'm 24 looking for answers as to what we can do to better 25 perform our function. So I think a couple of things WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 41 1 have come out of it. One would be to possibly to 2 have -- set the agenda earlier and get the notebooks 3 out earlier will certainly help us. And I would hope 4 that would give the members an opportunity, between 5 their receipt of the agenda and the backup notebook, 6 for them to talk with the individuals in the 7 constituency that they represent and get their views. 8 If you recall -- or Suzanne, I know you were on, and 9 Virginia, when we had the issue of minors working in 10 the halls, that's one we -- and maybe that's where 11 they say it takes too long. We considered it the 12 first time, and we, in effect, tabled it to let the 13 members of the committee go out and get more 14 information from their constituencies as to whether 15 this was -- not only was it a good idea, did they want 16 it, but give some specific information with which to 17 back it up. So that took us two meetings to resolve 18 the issue, which is a three-month period, and that 19 might be why they're complaining it takes too long to 20 act. But that was one of the cases where -- the thing 21 that you mentioned, Suzanne, of getting more 22 documentation, more information, and more input from 23 the community to back up to the table. 24 Robert, did you have a comment? I 25 thought I saw you with your hand up. Maybe it was WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 42 1 David. 2 MR. CASTILLO: I think that where they 3 got their impression that the attorneys were running 4 the committee or something was, one time we were 5 talking about subpoena power and we asked if we had a 6 hearing officer that the enabling law -- and some 7 attorney got up and he clarified the law, and it would 8 take a long time to -- once you got the administrative 9 hearing and all that, it would be a long time between 10 that and it would stop the bingo, and that's what he 11 clarified. Maybe that's what the audience saw that 12 day that they think it's running the bingo committee. 13 MR. SPEED: Mr. Chairman, I think maybe 14 there is a -- Bud Speed. I think we might be a little 15 frustrated by not accomplishing more than we did in 16 the legislature, and I think maybe that's the cause of 17 some of this conversation. I do see that we go over a 18 lot of things and don't get it -- don't get an end 19 result on them. I don't particularly think it's 20 Billy's problem. I think it might be our problem. 21 This is my first year out here, so some of these 22 people have got a lot more experience on the committee 23 than I have. 24 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, and I think also 25 that I feel a little frustrated personally when I do WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 43 1 appear before the commission -- and I was hoping that 2 Chairman Clowe or some other commissioner would be 3 here. I -- this is my personal feeling, my personal 4 observation, that the Lottery Commission is so 5 involved, as they should be, with other activities of 6 the commission, they don't give -- have not in the 7 past, in my opinion, given full consideration to the 8 needs of the Bingo Division as we present them to 9 them. And I'm partly responsible for that because I 10 certainly don't give the detailed report to the 11 commission that Billy did at the last meeting. I 12 think he did an excellent -- at the last meeting. I 13 mean, the meeting of the commission where he presented 14 the report for the committee, and he did a much better 15 job than I normally do. So it might be my fault that 16 I'm not bringing it to the attention of the commission 17 in the right way. And I think, if you read that 18 exchange between the commission and Billy, I think 19 that they are open to receiving more information and 20 want to receive more information. And so it's up to 21 us to present it. 22 But I would like to say also, while I'm 23 thinking about it, if any of you get a complaint such 24 as the -- of the type that Saleem and Suzanne have 25 mentioned, I wish that you would ask them to please WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 44 1 call me and discuss it with me. I think -- 2 MR. TAWIL: Most of them are afraid. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Am I that much of an 4 ogre? 5 MR. TAWIL: Well, people are afraid. 6 If they're a licensee, they're afraid Billy -- I know 7 Billy is impartial. That's why I'm open in the 8 meeting. But you can't get everybody to believe that. 9 They're afraid that they may -- I don't know. That's 10 the comments that I get. 11 MS. TAYLOR: Call undue attention to 12 themselves. 13 MR. TAWIL: Yeah. There is 14 something -- do you know what I'm talking about, 15 Billy? 16 MR. ATKINS: Well, I do, Saleem. Now, 17 I will tell you this. There is no shortage of 18 organizations -- well, licensees, any licensee, that 19 will call me on a moment's notice and, you know, 20 they're not afraid, they're not ashamed or anything 21 else. Now, I do think it's quite common for 22 organizations that have some sort of pending 23 administrative action against them, they're less 24 likely to do it. But I get calls every day. Calls 25 every day come into this office, on any number of WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 45 1 issues. 2 MR. TAWIL: I've talked to you on every 3 one, except there was one issue that we couldn't talk 4 about, but I think you said at the outset, I can't 5 talk to you about that issue. It was -- whatever the 6 issue was. But other than that, it's perfectly open. 7 But there are people out there, whether they have done 8 something or they're hiding something, whatever, I 9 don't know, but there is a lot of people that complain 10 but they have fear of personal attention, either 11 sitting up here or calling Billy or -- I'll try to 12 refer them. I will make a concerted effort to 13 persuade somebody to call. 14 MR. ATKINS: Well, and I'll call Steve 15 Bresnen, because I didn't know that we had gotten 16 crossways, so -- 17 MR. TAWIL: Steve didn't tell me that. 18 Now, I made that very clear because -- Bill said, was 19 it Steve, and said, no, it was somebody else. Steve 20 was involved in an altercation of frustration. And I 21 saw Steve at the Legislature, you know, and he was -- 22 I don't think that he lost any sleep over it. 23 MR. ATKINS: I saw him and he didn't 24 convey anything to me. 25 MR. TAWIL: So -- but there is a WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 46 1 testament here that this room is typically empty, and 2 those are the reasons. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, again, calling me 4 is not calling the division. And I would certainly 5 like to talk to these people to see if there is 6 anything that I can do or if there is anything that I 7 have done that has given that impression. And again, 8 I think it's -- comments or complaints like that ought 9 to be directed to the chairman, and they are 10 indirectly now, since you're bringing them forward. 11 MR. TAWIL: I tell you what I'll do. I 12 may not be able to get names, because people -- their 13 own protection, but I will try to get a list of items, 14 get people to write stuff down and get it to me of all 15 the different kinds of issues. The mostly that I get 16 information from are from the commercial side, meaning 17 either they're in the commercial leasing business or 18 they may be distributors, or some are charities, but I 19 will make a concerted effort to get a list as to the 20 kinds of things that they think needs change or 21 whatever. If everybody was like Ms. Thompson, we 22 would have this room full all the time. But that's 23 not the case. Most of them come once and they're gone 24 because they're -- they said, oh, yeah. So and so 25 told me that's the way it is, and I saw it for myself. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 47 1 CHAIR NEINAST: Linda, to summarize, 2 unless some member has additional comments, and I get 3 the feeling that it's the opinion of at least part of 4 the board that we are not -- or the committee that we 5 are not doing a good job, that we could do a better 6 job. And one way of doing that is getting more of an 7 input from the community as a whole and giving due 8 consideration to their concerns. And I as chairman am 9 certainly willing to do that. I welcome it. I am 10 disappointed that there are so few people in the 11 visitors gallery today, and this is unusual. We had a 12 trend there for the last few meetings where we did 13 have a lot of participation. It could be because of 14 the legislature now adjourned, they don't see a 15 pressing need to bring any of the items forward. 16 Again, I think they need to recognize that most of the 17 things that we're going to get into and recommend, 18 most of them I think will require a legislative or a 19 rule change, and that cannot be done overnight. It 20 may take several meetings of the committee before we 21 can reach a consensus on what should be proposed. 22 Any other comments on wrapping this 23 part of the discussion up? I would hope that, while 24 it might be rather lengthy, that we can make at least 25 that portion of the verbatim record available to at WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 48 1 least Chairman Clowe. I think he is now acting as the 2 liaison between the commission and the committee, is 3 he not? 4 MR. ATKINS: Yes. He is the designated 5 bingo representative. 6 MR. TAWIL: What is Sadberry doing? 7 MR. ATKINS: Making money. 8 CHAIR NEINAST: The next item is number 9 seven, consideration of and possible discussion and/or 10 action on conducting Bingo Advisory Committee meetings 11 at locations other than Austin. 12 You will have noticed from the item in 13 your notebook, and for those of you who did not get 14 the notebook, the committee voted sometime in the past 15 to do this, or at least to request permission from the 16 Lottery Commission that we be able to hold some 17 meetings outside of Austin. That was presented to the 18 commission, I presented it. And in your notebook, 19 there is a verbatim account of that exchange. The 20 commission, primarily through Chairman Clowe, was 21 opposed to that and disapproved it. And, again, I 22 think it's one of those cases where I did not make 23 the -- the case strong enough, because I assumed, and 24 obviously assumed wrongly, that it would just go 25 through the commission without much comment. But I WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 49 1 was wrong. And they disapproved it. But I think we 2 need to visit -- or revisit that again for the reasons 3 that we have already discussed. 4 I think the -- I look at this, and 5 maybe wrongly, that our primary community for the 6 charities are operators, because that's what the Bingo 7 Enabling Act was passed to help, to make bingo, 8 charitable bingo legal in the State of Texas. And so 9 that, to me, is -- are the main constituency. So the 10 people who are running the charitable bingo for the 11 most part are volunteers, and they're doing it to help 12 their organization raise money for their charitable 13 purposes. To come down here from Amarillo, or 14 Kingsville, or wherever, is money out of their pocket 15 that doesn't reflect in the profit from the 16 distributors and others who are on the committee. I 17 think there would be -- it's quite different from 18 those who appear before the Lottery Commission who 19 are, to a large extent, the people who are selling the 20 lottery tickets and making money that way, so they 21 have a real profit incentive to get on the plane and 22 come to Austin to appear before the commission. You 23 don't find that incentive among the charitable 24 organizations who are running the games. And I do 25 think -- I could be wrong, at least for that WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 50 1 community, for the community for which the Bingo 2 Enabling Act was passed, it would give those people an 3 opportunity to appear before the commission. If you 4 notice, of the people that we have had appear before 5 the -- I mean, the committee, to appear before the 6 committee in the past have been generally from Austin 7 or Houston or San Antonio. There is a lot of Texas 8 out there that we never, ever hear from. And I think 9 if we could hold maybe just a couple of meetings a 10 year outside of Austin, it will give those voices a 11 chance to be heard. So that was my basis for putting 12 it on the agenda to open it up again. 13 What are the views of the committee 14 members? 15 MS. BRACKETT: I agree with you. I 16 have served on the board of directors of a group 17 concerned with children's services and foster 18 children, because that's what my agency does, and find 19 that it really is disheartening over how everything 20 that affects me out in west Texas is -- all the 21 decisions are made by the core group you just talked 22 about from the places you can drive in very easily and 23 very inexpensively. I think, if we could meet at 24 some, what people here consider remote places like 25 Lubbock, Texas, it would be very encouraging to the WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 51 1 charities and maybe make them feel a little bit more 2 prideful and more respected in what they're doing, and 3 have a lot more interest in some of these legislative 4 issues that they just think, okay, that's been 5 proposed, I can sit back and forget it and not write 6 in the letters that they should be doing, or not 7 making the phone calls that they should be doing to 8 their elected officials. I think the visibility -- 9 that's what I'm trying to say, the visibility would be 10 exceedingly important. And then the education of the 11 individual operators and the charities that they 12 represent would be very, very important, too. 13 One thing that I have -- that I think 14 has created a little bit of interest was the operator 15 training. Having the operator training in different 16 locations, and people coming together and then 17 privileged to really good smooth, slick presentation 18 that people thought -- that the Bingo Division thought 19 was important enough to bring to them to make business 20 better. 21 CHAIR NEINAST: Further comment? 22 MR. TAWIL: I think you ought to have a 23 quarterly meeting that's assigned to cities a long 24 time in advance. I think that would be beneficial. 25 It could be in Odessa one quarter, Lubbock one WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 52 1 quarter, Corpus through the Valley one quarter, Austin 2 one quarter. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: And this has to be 4 considered in connection with the budgetary -- 5 MR. TAWIL: Oh, we can't fly first 6 class? 7 CHAIR NEINAST: No. What I mean -- 8 MR. ATKINS: On Southwest. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: As discussed at the 10 previous meetings, there is a problem of how much 11 money is available, because it would require some of 12 the staff to travel that's not required now. It would 13 cut down -- be offset to a little extent by less 14 travel for some of the other members. But anyway, 15 that is a consideration that needs to be considered. 16 My personal opinion is stated -- 17 MR. RINEHART: I'm sure that in our 18 part of the country, we would have people participate, 19 to come out -- 20 CHAIR NEINAST: That was Mr. Rinehart, 21 Robert Rinehart. 22 MR. RINEHART: Well, I'm just not sure, 23 you know, how many we would have to turn out in our 24 part of the country for this. But -- by movement. I 25 don't know whether the good part would be to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 53 1 accomplish -- the bad part to try to set it up and 2 bring the commissioners or Billy with all his staff, 3 or whatever it might be. And he would have time to do 4 it -- 5 MS. BRACKETT: It would be a chance -- 6 MR. RINEHART: I'm just talking about 7 now, about the Amarillo territory, which is close to 8 Lubbock, but Lubbock may turn out a lot better 9 turnout. 10 MS. BRACKETT: Listen there is not a 11 bingo player in Lubbock that doesn't want to tell 12 Billy Atkins how to run the thing. And what -- 13 anyway, I just think that we would have a turnaway 14 crowd, just about. They tell us every day how to run 15 our show. And we listen to our customers, you know. 16 We need to listen to our customers. Every industry 17 has to listen to their customers. 18 MR. HOFFNER: Mr. Chairman, Fabian 19 Hoffner again. I'm generally -- I'm generally for 20 those kinds of -- 21 CHAIR NEINAST: Can you speak up for 22 the -- 23 MR. HOFFNER: I said, I'm generally for 24 those sorts of programs where agencies and boards go 25 out and meet with folks that are directly affected, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 54 1 but it's seems like that the chairman of the Lottery 2 Commission has already sort of made a decision. Am I 3 wrong? I mean, it says here that -- that in the 4 November meeting that he said, it elevates this 5 committee to a high level. It's an advisory 6 committee. The commission looks on it and the staff 7 with great prestige and it would be improper for the 8 commission to meet anywhere else other than Austin. 9 This is where the people's business is conducted. And 10 I feel the same towards the advisory committee. I 11 think the members ought to come to Austin and conduct 12 that business, which is the people's business, here in 13 Austin. 14 You know, I'm for it. You know, I 15 think it would be a good idea for us to go around, but 16 I'm wondering if anything has changed on behalf of the 17 chairman or the commission that sort of opens -- 18 MR. TAWIL: He's in charge of bingo 19 now. That's the difference. 20 MR. HOFFNER: That opens this 21 discussion -- 22 CHAIR NEINAST: And I know that this 23 might be beating a dead horse, but one of the things I 24 think that I did not do a good job, because I was 25 caught by surprise, by pointing out a vast difference WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 55 1 between the commission and the committee. The 2 committee is more or less a fact finding committee and 3 just as a number of years ago, I know the State 4 Legislature, the House of Representatives committee 5 that had to do with bingo -- I've forgotten what the 6 name of it was, but -- I can't even remember what 7 the -- 8 MR. TAWIL: Administrative licensing. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: But they held a 10 hearing -- the committee convened in Brenham, Texas to 11 consider items on bingo, and members of the Bingo 12 Division came to Brenham to appear before the 13 committee. So that committee went out to gather 14 information, and possibly if we presented this 15 proposal, if it becomes a proposal, in that fashion, 16 there might be a different consideration, particularly 17 since there is now one new member on the commission 18 who was not there in November. Commission Sadberry, 19 who commented on the proposal, is no longer on the 20 commission. So we do have, to a certain extent, a new 21 commission. Chairman Clowe is still the chairman. 22 MS. TAYLOR: Billy, what was that 23 committee? I know you didn't just go to Brenham. 24 They went to Brenham when they were going around the 25 state right -- during the legislative time or before, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 56 1 because I know they met in the Valley and San Antonio 2 and Brenham. 3 MR. ATKINS: The committee that Bill is 4 talking about is the House committee, and it met in 5 Austin, Brenham, and El Paso. The Senate committee 6 met at several other locations throughout the state. 7 But I did want to follow up, 8 Mr. Chairman, on your comments in that there is a new 9 committee member, and if you'll recall, even 10 Commissioner Sadberry, in his comments -- his comments 11 was, he didn't support it at this time. So I do think 12 it's valid to go back, given two things. One, with 13 the new commissioner; and also, with the additional 14 information that you've been talking about here. Now, 15 there was a lot of concern, I think, on behalf of the 16 Commissioners centering around the cost in relation to 17 either having to get a location or staff travel costs. 18 And I think that can be effectively addressed through 19 the specific agenda items that are put on any one 20 agenda. I mean, obviously the agenda items today are 21 going to require, you know, the presence of at least 22 myself and three additional staff members. So, you 23 know, that's something that would be more -- you know, 24 more costly. But if there was an agenda item that, 25 you know, didn't have items on it that required the WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 57 1 presence of additional staff members, then that would 2 reduce the -- your travel costs. 3 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, even with those 4 items today where we had some of your staff members 5 present, like Mike and Nelda, both of their reports 6 could have been handled just by the written reports 7 they submitted. 8 MR. ATKINS: That's correct. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: So the only one that I 10 think that might generally -- we might want to have 11 easy access to would be Kim or her staff, and we don't 12 call them -- where we need their advice for an item at 13 the time, we can refer it to the legal general counsel 14 later. 15 Okay. I think we've discussed this 16 enough. Is there a motion on this particular item? 17 MS. BRACKETT: A motion that you 18 continue to pursue it? 19 CHAIR NEINAST: No. The motion that -- 20 the chair would entertain a motion that the committee 21 recommend to the commission that the rule be changed 22 to allow meetings of the Bingo Advisory Committee 23 outside of Austin. 24 MR. SPEED: I second. 25 MS. BRACKETT: I so move. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 58 1 CHAIR NEINAST: We now have a motion 2 that's been made and seconded to recommend to the 3 Lottery Commission a rule change to authorize the 4 Bingo Advisory Committee to meet outside of Austin. 5 Further discussion? Saleem. 6 MR. TAWIL: I'm just anticipating an 7 issue that might be -- now, let's say, they asked 8 it -- they say, well, now Houston would benefit more 9 and Dallas. You know what I'm saying, Billy? 10 MR. ATKINS: I know exactly what you're 11 talking about. And I'm telling you right now, 12 staffing won't have anything to do with that. 13 MR. TAWIL: They need to wrap that up 14 as part of the thing so that -- you've got a big 15 controversy that's going to come out as soon as you 16 get this approved, so -- 17 MR. ATKINS: And Saleem is talking 18 about where to hold the meeting. 19 MR. TAWIL: Mr. Chairman, you might 20 want to consider articulating in some fashion by 21 zoning it in advance. That keeps people from -- 22 because there is a legitimate reason. We're talking 23 about four million people versus 200,000. 24 MR. SPEED: I think you'd better try to 25 get it approved first. I'm not sure you're going to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 59 1 get it approved. 2 CHAIR NEINAST: I understand what you 3 say, Saleem. And again, the way the motion is 4 written, the way we go to the commission is that the 5 committee would set up the -- where we meet. And then 6 when we get to that, I think you've got a good point 7 of -- I do think that, as was in the original motion, 8 by that I mean, the one that we considered some time 9 ago, that it would require one meeting to be in 10 Austin. And maybe two or three. But the way the 11 motion was presented then was that the committee would 12 set its meeting places so long as one was in Austin. 13 And -- a kind of a -- that's not the exact wording of 14 the motion, but that was the way it was presented. 15 Any further discussion? Call the 16 question. All in favor of the motion, aye. Opposed, 17 no. The motion carried unanimously. 18 The next item is number eight, 19 consideration of and possible discussion and/or action 20 on whether the Charitable Bingo Operations Division 21 should be a separate state agency. 22 I am listed as being the member 23 responsible for that. Again, I'll throw it open for 24 discussion. Certainly, bingo, charitable bingo in 25 Texas is a big business. I think there are probably WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 60 1 some activities in the state that have their separate 2 commissions or agencies. Certainly, the Bingo 3 Division, since its inception, has been bounced. It's 4 been the stepchild of three different agencies. 5 MR. ATKINS: Mr. Chairman, I take 6 exception to that comment. 7 CHAIR NEINAST: What? They're -- 8 MR. ATKINS: That it's been the 9 stepchild of three separate agencies. 10 CHAIR NEINAST: Well, I -- that's the 11 way it would appear. It's been just a section put in 12 and imposed on them by the outside is what I meant. 13 MR. ATKINS: Then, if you believe it's 14 been done by a stepchild, but if by an outside agency. 15 But I don't think this agency considers it a 16 stepchild. 17 CHAIR NEINAST: Okay. Well, that might 18 be a bad choice of words, but it's been moved from 19 agency to agency. This is the third agency of which 20 it's been a part. And I meant that just to indicate 21 that, well, we don't want it, or whoever made the 22 decision. There will be a lot of budget 23 considerations, of course, in setting it up as a 24 separate agency of the state. Is it worth pursuing? 25 Would there be anything gained by doing it? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 61 1 Certainly, it goes back to the discussion we had 2 earlier where the bingo community, at least part of 3 it, thinks that it's a -- just a -- I can't think of 4 a -- since stepchild was not a good word, I'm looking 5 for another description. That it's under the thumb of 6 the Lottery Commission that does not have the bingo 7 industry as its first priority or a major priority. 8 So with that, I'll throw it open. 9 MR. SPEED: Mr. Chairman, I've been 10 involved in all three, and the current one has done -- 11 has given it a lot more attention than the previous 12 two. My thoughts are about the proposal is, I would 13 love to see it, but I don't think we would ever get it 14 done. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. The 15 Comptroller and -- the TABC was the worst of all the 16 three, by far. The Comptroller was not far behind 17 them. And the Lottery Commission, I think we are 18 small compared to what they're doing, and I would like 19 to see us separated, but I don't see a shot at it. 20 Maybe other people disagree. 21 MR. TAWIL: We tried in '95, I think. 22 When I say "we," someone tried at the legislature and 23 it didn't get anywhere. Do you remember that, Billy? 24 I don't remember. 25 MR. ATKINS: Was it '95 or '97? WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 62 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: '95. 2 MR. ATKINS: '95. 3 MR. TAWIL: So I am kind of like my 4 colleague here, is that I think there is more 5 attention here. But in reality, when you think about 6 lottery versus bingo, they are really two different 7 agendas. And I know they have a big job in just 8 handling the lottery alone, so -- and it would be 9 meritous to have us in a separate organization. I 10 think Billy would do just as good a job the way it is 11 now as the other way. But at least, I would think the 12 greater goals for higher achievement as a separate 13 organization would take on new life. We would not be 14 tied down with the security and the legal staff that 15 has to tend to both children, if you will, whether 16 it's lottery or bingo. They can just focus on bingo 17 or focus on lottery, and they're separate. It may be 18 a problem from the standpoint of cost. Do you create 19 another whole new administrative division? I don't 20 know. Because Billy's division is augmented with the 21 security and legal -- there is one big budget. 22 Do they allocate yours from that, 23 Billy, or is separate from that? 24 MR. ATKINS: Charitable Bingo Division 25 gets a straight line appropriation. WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 63 1 MR. TAWIL: Yeah. But I mean, for your 2 security and legal needs, those are not broken out, 3 are they? 4 MR. ATKINS: No. We pay an indirect 5 cost to the Lottery Commission for those services. 6 MR. TAWIL: So it could be identified 7 and separated without adding more cost to the state's 8 bill. 9 CHAIR NEINAST: When was the bingo 10 division transferred to lottery? 11 MR. ATKINS: April 1st, 1994. 12 CHAIR NEINAST: So the move -- I was 13 not aware that there had been a move to create a 14 separate agency. 15 MR. TAWIL: That particular session, 16 they tried to get it separated out. But if the 17 division is paying indirectly, they do find the 18 dollars with respect -- from the legal and security 19 standpoint on the division, it would seem to me that 20 it would be easy to do because they're carrying their 21 weight as it is. 22 MR. ATKINS: Let me clarify one thing. 23 We're paying a percentage of the cost. We don't pay 24 the entire amount. So it's sub -- it's -- I don't 25 want to say subsidized, but based on a recommendation WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 64 1 by the State Auditor's Office, we pay the Lottery 2 Commission, the agency as a whole, a percentage for 3 those support services that they provide in relation 4 to the number of FTEs in the bingo division versus the 5 entire commission. 6 CHAIR NEINAST: I think one definite 7 positive action or result of setting it up as a -- the 8 Bingo Division as a separate state agency would be in 9 the advertising budget. And I know we're going to 10 discuss this subsequently as an agenda item for the 11 next meeting, but if there could be some advertising, 12 generic advertising for bingo, it would certainly, I 13 think, help turnout at bingo games. If it -- if the 14 agency would have a separate advertising budget to 15 devote strictly to bingo. The fact that it is 16 probably facing an uphill battle should not be a 17 reason or a primary reason not to pursue it, in my 18 opinion. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We don't 19 know what the climate will be with the next 20 legislature or the next legislators, how they may view 21 it or how the Commission may view it. So I agree and 22 I think I stated it in my opening comment that this 23 would be extremely difficult to do, but I think it's 24 something we need to look at and decide, within the 25 committee, whether this is something we want to WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 65 1 pursue. And I don't think that any action we take, 2 assuming that we were to approve pursuing setting up 3 the division as a separate agency, I don't think that 4 could be construed as any reflection on either the 5 Lottery Commission or the Bingo Division in any way. 6 It just should be viewed as an item that this 7 committee thinks might make the bingo operation in the 8 state of Texas more efficient. 9 Yes, ma'am. 10 MS. THOMPSON: I haven't filled out a 11 sheet. I'm Jane Thompson. 12 MR. ATKINS: Jane, you need to come up 13 here. 14 CHAIR NEINAST: And let me have a sheet 15 from you later. 16 MS. THOMPSON: Yes. 17 CHAIR NEINAST: And would you identify 18 yourself. 19 MS. THOMPSON: I'm Jane Thompson with 20 Thompson Allstate Bingo Supply. Would it be too 21 costly to go out with a poll to the bingo industry and 22 get opinions from anybody that is interested to see -- 23 get their ideas and see how they feel about it. You 24 know, I hear from customers both for it and, you know, 25 moving it somewhere else. And I hear from them that WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 66 1 say, you know, that everything is fine the way it is. 2 So I think it would help a lot to get -- you know, get 3 opinions from everybody. But is it costly to go out 4 and kind of take that kind of poll, and who has to -- 5 who has to take that cost to do that. 6 CHAIR NEINAST: Billy? I think that 7 there is some discussion -- 8 MR. ATKINS: Is that a question to me? 9 CHAIR NEINAST: Yes. There is some 10 discussion also in one of the items of our handbook 11 talking about various polling methods and how you do 12 it and how you can do it. So would this be feasible 13 to conduct some type of a poll and would it be within 14 your budget to do so if that were the desire of the 15 committee? 16 MR. ATKINS: The short answer is, I 17 don't know. The more detailed answer is, generally, a 18 truly impartial scientific poll is, yes, difficult and 19 expensive to conduct. Even if we only got it, you 20 know, paid to have the poll itself developed and we 21 conducted the poll ourselves, you know, 22 telephonically, it would be expensive in terms of man 23 hours. So -- 24 MS. THOMPSON: If you did it through 25 the bingo bulletin, like you've done some, haven't WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 67 1 you, and requested replies back from the people. If 2 you could do it that way. I think when people know 3 that you are -- you want information from them, it's 4 going to make them feel, you know, more involved in -- 5 and I think it's a -- it's a good way to get people 6 involved is to ask them. 7 MR. ATKINS: Well, let me give you a 8 little history, Jane. You're right. We have tried to 9 conduct polls through the bingo bulletin and we've 10 stressed that we're desperate for their input. And 11 the last one we did, we mailed out over 2,000 bingo 12 bulletins and I think we got 38 responses. 13 MS. THOMPSON: That's distressing. 14 Well, it's just a suggestion. 15 CHAIR NEINAST: Ms. Thompson, what is 16 your personal view on whether it should be a separate 17 state agency? 18 MS. THOMPSON: I think overall I would 19 like to see it be a state agency, but I think -- and 20 mainly because I think there has always been such a 21 problem with the perception of us being with the 22 Lottery Commission. And because we're two -- you 23 know, two distinct divisions and we've always felt 24 like we were, you know, second in line and we were 25 having to compete against the Lottery. So, you know, WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 68 1 when you think about the perception, with us having 2 our own state agency would be good. I still think 3 there is lots -- I think it's a really -- it would be 4 a hard thing to get passed. And I think it would take 5 an awful lot of work from a lot of people. I think 6 things are going very well as they are now with the 7 Lottery Commission, having the Bingo Division here. 8 But I think just when you think about the perception, 9 and in the end, it might benefit bingo to have our own 10 agency and have our own advertising budget. I think 11 that's one of the biggest things we've got to do. If 12 we could advertise like the Lottery advertises, I 13 think that would do so much for bingo if we could do 14 something like that. And whether it be in our own 15 state agency or whether we do it within the Lottery 16 Commission, either way, I think that's one of the 17 biggest assets that we need to strive for. 18 CHAIR NEINAST: Any questions of this 19 Ms. Thompson? 20 MR. TAWIL: I do respect her opinion 21 and comments and I think they have great value. But 22 based on past experiences here in Texas, this is a 23 political issue, so it has nothing to do with -- and I 24 realize we're going to come back with a survey that 25 says 50 percent or 75, really -- it just gives you a WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 69 1 better feel for what's happening. But in reality, 2 what this is going to take is the committee agreeing 3 to do it and each one of us committed to contact those 4 legislators, senators and representatives in their 5 district and tell them, if they don't support this 6 issue, we're going to work against them. It's a 7 political issue. That's what it's going to take to 8 get this changed. That's the only way it'll get 9 changed, and not because anybody is being personal 10 about it, but just because organizations will not like 11 to make the change. Nobody likes change. If we -- I 12 know the representatives, having worked on other 13 legislation, this is what it's going to take. And 14 particularly earmarking one or two people in the 15 Senate and one or two people in the House to 16 committing themselves to serving right now. We can 17 make it happen, all of us on this committee alone can 18 make it happen if we really commit ourselves to making 19 it work. 20 CHAIR NEINAST: Any further questions 21 or comments of Ms. -- thank you, Ms. Thompson. 22 Appreciate it. 23 MR. TAWIL: You can probably get people 24 like her and other to help support it. 25 CHAIR NEINAST: Billy, do you know WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 70 1 offhand what the general status of bingo is in other 2 states? Are they generally a separate agency or -- 3 MR. ATKINS: No, sir. 4 CHAIR NEINAST: You don't know or -- 5 MR. ATKINS: No, they're not generally 6 a state agency. We did a real quick survey of -- 7 earlier, of the states that we could identify, and I 8 think there was only one or two where bingo was the 9 only activity at the agency. Let me just, real quick, 10 run through this. There were three states where bingo 11 was a division of the Attorney General's Office. 12 There were seven where bingo was a division of the 13 Secretary of State's Office. There were two where it 14 was what is listed as Department of Inspections. It 15 was a division in five state police departments or 16 comparable to our DPS. Seven where it was a division 17 of the Department of Revenue, which I think would be 18 comparable to the Comptroller's Office. Five where it 19 was part of a state lottery. And eight where it was 20 part of a -- a gaming or a gambling commission. And 21 all but, it looks like two, of those gaming 22 commissions regulated other forms of gaming also, such 23 as river boats, racing commissions, raffles, Indian 24 casinos, et cetera. 25 CHAIR NEINAST: And are most state WRIGHT WATSON STEN-TEL (800) 375-4363 (512) 474-4363 July 25, 2001 71 1 bingo laws, bingo operations limited to charitable 2 organizations as it is in Texas, or do they have a 3 regular commercial bingo? 4 MR. ATKINS: They're generally, bingo 5 is a form of charitable fund raising. There are some 6 states, I think they have a little different licensing 7 structure in that they actually license or authorize a 8 commercial entity to conduct the games, or whatever, 9 but again, a certain percentage of those proceeds have 10 to go to some designated charitable purpose. But 11 bingo is -- I mean, generally, a charitable fund 12 raising activity. 13 MR. HOFFNER: Mr. Chairman, if I could 14 just add to that. An enormous percentage of bingo 15 played in America is charitable. I think that a small 16 percentage is Indian bingo, as far as percent -- yo